Visual separation in ACC
Visual separation in ACC
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 3,984
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
By ACC, I assume you mean Class A airspace--positive control is the answer. Only radar or procedural separation allowed in Class A, no visual.
GF
GF
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,086
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From: Greystation
Why not?
Simple, mis-identification and the amount of RTF needed as both pilots must comply. There are a few nationalities I wouldn't even consider asking due to misunderstandings too.
The mis-idents can come from something as simple as BMI aircraft flying using Lufthansa callsigns - as ATC we do not know if the aircraft we are speaking to is actually owned or even painted up in the callsign colours. I know we don't have to pass operator just aircraft type, but if you heard me call a Lufthansa requesting for you to visually climb through and then you noticed it was a BMI craft, you would feel uneasy and possibly question whether you are climbing through the correct aircraft's level. Too dangerous and negates us actually having radar and in the UK as many sectors have lots of climbing/descending aircraft in close proximity it just wouldn't work.
Simple, mis-identification and the amount of RTF needed as both pilots must comply. There are a few nationalities I wouldn't even consider asking due to misunderstandings too.
The mis-idents can come from something as simple as BMI aircraft flying using Lufthansa callsigns - as ATC we do not know if the aircraft we are speaking to is actually owned or even painted up in the callsign colours. I know we don't have to pass operator just aircraft type, but if you heard me call a Lufthansa requesting for you to visually climb through and then you noticed it was a BMI craft, you would feel uneasy and possibly question whether you are climbing through the correct aircraft's level. Too dangerous and negates us actually having radar and in the UK as many sectors have lots of climbing/descending aircraft in close proximity it just wouldn't work.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 443
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From: Golden Road to Samarkand
Interesting... Visual Separation is banned from use in all classes of airspace in the FIR I'm currently working... including Class A.
No Visual Sighting & Passing allowed... RADAR or DME only.
No Visual Sighting & Passing allowed... RADAR or DME only.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
caucatc
Another relevant factor in UK airspace is that the SMF [a computerised separation monitor] does not know the difference between a visual separation and a loss of Radar separation. If we lose 5 miles/1000 feet, or whatever separation is required in a particular piece of sky...it can be more in some London ACC airspace, it will flag up on the supervisor's desk; instant suspension results. Even after a positive pass of opposite direction flights, re-inforced by both pilots' visual confirmation, climb/descent is forbidden until the required Radar separation is achieved.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 1
From: Berkshire, UK
<<In the UK, particularly in TMA airspace, it was an acceptable technique in the early eighties to expedite >>
Are you sure? I was there in the 80s... and 70s.. and don't recall ever being able to use VMC climbs/descents in Class A TMA airspace..
Are you sure? I was there in the 80s... and 70s.. and don't recall ever being able to use VMC climbs/descents in Class A TMA airspace..
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 314
Likes: 70
From: on the way to sea
I just wanted to say the same ^^^^^^^
what would you do during the visual climb-out or descent and you get the advisory? besides, I think that visual separation on-route is not allowed worldwide.
what would you do during the visual climb-out or descent and you get the advisory? besides, I think that visual separation on-route is not allowed worldwide.
