ATC loss of commnication procedures
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: EDI
ATC loss of commnication procedures
Was flying EDI-BLL the other day, talking to Scottish, when they lost contact with Delta 69. After numerous attempts to contact them on the frequency and also 121.5, no contact was made.
We were asked to try and relay to Delta 69 on Copenhagen's frequency, once Copenhagen gave permission.
Eventually, we made contact and gave Delta 69 the correct frequency.
My question is.......
What is the process to go through to try and establish any communication - i.e. squawking ident if the a/c can receive transmissions, trying the a/c on guard or on neighbouring sectors' frequency, and ultimately, when would you ask for the a/c to be intercepted?
I realise this may be sensitive information and I wish I had asked it in a recent visit to EDI tower but alas. I would happily take a PM if it helps
Thanks
We were asked to try and relay to Delta 69 on Copenhagen's frequency, once Copenhagen gave permission.
Eventually, we made contact and gave Delta 69 the correct frequency.
My question is.......
What is the process to go through to try and establish any communication - i.e. squawking ident if the a/c can receive transmissions, trying the a/c on guard or on neighbouring sectors' frequency, and ultimately, when would you ask for the a/c to be intercepted?
I realise this may be sensitive information and I wish I had asked it in a recent visit to EDI tower but alas. I would happily take a PM if it helps
Thanks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 239
Likes: 11
From: southampton
There is no process. You do all those things that you mention (praying that it doesn't ident cos thats a bugger) but there is no particular order or way of doing it. You try to think of any ways that you might be able to talk to it and try them.
The mil decides when to intercept, they will be told of any RT fails and its upto them to launch.
The mil decides when to intercept, they will be told of any RT fails and its upto them to launch.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 1
From: Berkshire, UK
One thing we used to try was to transmit on the VORs which had ATIS - not sure if they still do?
Radar controllers don't have too much of a problem - they simply keep traffic out of the way and watch what the guy does.
Radar controllers don't have too much of a problem - they simply keep traffic out of the way and watch what the guy does.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
RYR738_driver
Don't worry good buddy....it's a lot more common than you may think, certainly on my sectors. Number 1....keep everything out of your way.
Obviously we call you several times....contact last unit or sector to see if you've flipped back.....ask them to call you.....ask another aircraft to relay...ask D&D to try 121.5.....ask company aircraft to try company freq....use SELCAL if you have it....send an ACARS....use the phone [not joking]. Loads of options.
Sometimes an aircraft may be receiving an Oceanic clearance on another box, and may have muted or deselected box1.....we can contact Shanwick to check.
Common sense [not in the book] depending on your destination...wait until you reach TOD....99% call us then. We watch for a 7600 continuously...as well as a range of other measures that will already have been put in place.
We do not ask for any aircraft to be intercepted.....that is not our job....but relevant information will have been passed to other parties.
If they do come.....it's bloody quick....their performance is awesome...in fact double awesome!!
Some reasons for poor/lost reception....occassionally the 6-number channel may be misheard or mis-input, communication may still be possible but with some difficulty/patchy....not infrequent on my sectors. We may have deselected one of the chain of transmitter/receivers to alleviate weather interference...thus reducing coverage.
During quiet hours we may be operating with several sectors joined together [or bandboxed as we say], you may check in on one frequency/channel which is optimised for that sector....but by the time you leave the combined sector group [7 in my case....covering 72000sq miles] you may not be tuned to the most optimum......especially if the latter part of your flight contains a descent profile. You may have been asked to re-contact the same controller on a different frequency/channel on the odd occassion..that may be why.
Rgds
Obviously we call you several times....contact last unit or sector to see if you've flipped back.....ask them to call you.....ask another aircraft to relay...ask D&D to try 121.5.....ask company aircraft to try company freq....use SELCAL if you have it....send an ACARS....use the phone [not joking]. Loads of options.
Sometimes an aircraft may be receiving an Oceanic clearance on another box, and may have muted or deselected box1.....we can contact Shanwick to check.
Common sense [not in the book] depending on your destination...wait until you reach TOD....99% call us then. We watch for a 7600 continuously...as well as a range of other measures that will already have been put in place.
We do not ask for any aircraft to be intercepted.....that is not our job....but relevant information will have been passed to other parties.
If they do come.....it's bloody quick....their performance is awesome...in fact double awesome!!
Some reasons for poor/lost reception....occassionally the 6-number channel may be misheard or mis-input, communication may still be possible but with some difficulty/patchy....not infrequent on my sectors. We may have deselected one of the chain of transmitter/receivers to alleviate weather interference...thus reducing coverage.
During quiet hours we may be operating with several sectors joined together [or bandboxed as we say], you may check in on one frequency/channel which is optimised for that sector....but by the time you leave the combined sector group [7 in my case....covering 72000sq miles] you may not be tuned to the most optimum......especially if the latter part of your flight contains a descent profile. You may have been asked to re-contact the same controller on a different frequency/channel on the odd occassion..that may be why.
Rgds
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 206
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From: Sunny Scotland
Thanks very much for your assistance that day, it was appreciated. the delta in question had come originally from that copenhagen frequency, and we suspect in trying to contact shanwick for his oceanic clearance that he used his no.1 box which was on our frequency and then once he had his clearance went back to monitoring the no.2 box which was still on copenhagen's freq but obviously out of range.
There are many stages we go through including those you have mentioned. we will always talk to shanwick for traffic that is transatlantic bound , incase the situation described occurs. we also will talk to the airline ops who will be able to send an acars text message , and use the oceanic sel call as well as utilising any company aircraft to try to pass a message on a company frequency
once again, thanks very much
There are many stages we go through including those you have mentioned. we will always talk to shanwick for traffic that is transatlantic bound , incase the situation described occurs. we also will talk to the airline ops who will be able to send an acars text message , and use the oceanic sel call as well as utilising any company aircraft to try to pass a message on a company frequency
once again, thanks very much
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 332
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From: Europe
BTW - don't want to speak for all countries, but in my FIR rules say you intercept only these a/c that pose threat to national security. So an a/c which just lost comm, but continues according to its f/p and procedures, most probably wouldn't be intercepted. And anyway, this decision does not belong to a controller on duty.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 1
From: Berkshire, UK
Interesting how things change with political problems. I saw a fair number of radio failures whilst at Heathrow and TC and it caused us no concern at all. Guess everyone considers the worst case nowadays. What a dreadful age we live in...
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
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From: FAJS
acars
controller to contact airlines operation to inform aircraft of frequency in use through ACARS. As Morse code was standardized will it take a similar situation for a standard like MetorAir CARS to become a standard. if this was the case ATC could inform new info to the aircraft directly. From what I have read on the net just about every system is different
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 7
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From: Pacific Region
in such a case, things i would do: adz aircraft to squawk ident...relay message thru other aircraft...via selcal...adz his operator or handler if there's one in my country....recheck flight plan...if he's not flying where he's supposed to, i might consider notifying airforce people...but then we don't have aircraft or whatever to intercept possible terrorist attack anyway so i think my job ends where my super's headache begins. 
