EGGW/Essex Radar joining procedures
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EGGW/Essex Radar joining procedures
Hello all,
Inbound to EGGW yesterday on a L2Q arrival, I am used to giving the destination airports ATIS code with QNH and aircraft type on first contact with Essex, and have been doing so for years.
I then get handed on to Luton approach 129.55, who after my initial call to them with heading, speed and cleared level, curtly requested that I declare aircraft type, and what ATIS code and QNH I was in receipt of.
So whats changed here?
Either:
A. I don't need to give this additional information to Essex at all;
B. We now need to give this additional information twice;
C. Essex and Luton controllers didn't communicate on this occasion.
Arkwright
Inbound to EGGW yesterday on a L2Q arrival, I am used to giving the destination airports ATIS code with QNH and aircraft type on first contact with Essex, and have been doing so for years.
I then get handed on to Luton approach 129.55, who after my initial call to them with heading, speed and cleared level, curtly requested that I declare aircraft type, and what ATIS code and QNH I was in receipt of.
So whats changed here?
Either:
A. I don't need to give this additional information to Essex at all;
B. We now need to give this additional information twice;
C. Essex and Luton controllers didn't communicate on this occasion.
Arkwright
Last edited by Arkwright; 5th Jul 2009 at 04:50.
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Hi Arkwright
Totally understand your confusion regarding this.
What is unusual in this situation is that you are being handed initially to one approach unit(Essex), who after seperating you from the Stansted inbounds then hand you over to another approch unit(Luton).
Unfortunately the rules state that the atis, a/c type etc must be confirmed on first contact, and with management now blindly insisting on absolute adherence to procedures, common sense is increasingly left to one side.
So, until Essex are taken out of the loop by the new airspace which Luton have been promised next year, you will continue to have both Luton and Stansted controllers requesting that information. Stansted are also often too busy to tell the Luton guys whether each a/c has just been given the latest weather, so if there is a change they would want you to confirm receipt.
The old adage I was taught by my instructor that rules were for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools no longer has a place in NATS.
Totally understand your confusion regarding this.
What is unusual in this situation is that you are being handed initially to one approach unit(Essex), who after seperating you from the Stansted inbounds then hand you over to another approch unit(Luton).
Unfortunately the rules state that the atis, a/c type etc must be confirmed on first contact, and with management now blindly insisting on absolute adherence to procedures, common sense is increasingly left to one side.
So, until Essex are taken out of the loop by the new airspace which Luton have been promised next year, you will continue to have both Luton and Stansted controllers requesting that information. Stansted are also often too busy to tell the Luton guys whether each a/c has just been given the latest weather, so if there is a change they would want you to confirm receipt.
The old adage I was taught by my instructor that rules were for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools no longer has a place in NATS.
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Thanks for your reply Arch Stanton,
So it is as bad as I feared...... having to repeat the same information, to two approach controllers, within minutes, and sometime seconds of each other, wasting the valuable airtime of two of the busiest London frequencies......
At least now I know why the Luton controller was so curt with me! Hopefully the airspace changes to which you refer will resolve this issue sometime soon?
Arkwright
So it is as bad as I feared...... having to repeat the same information, to two approach controllers, within minutes, and sometime seconds of each other, wasting the valuable airtime of two of the busiest London frequencies......
At least now I know why the Luton controller was so curt with me! Hopefully the airspace changes to which you refer will resolve this issue sometime soon?
Arkwright
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You don't need to advise Essex radar of the weather you have or the aircraft type.
You are required to advise the airport you are inbound to of these facts. As Essex isn't Luton approach it isn't relevant to us what Luton weather you have or your aircraft type. Essex radar just does the initial sequencing for Luton but isn't Luton approach.
You are required to advise the airport you are inbound to of these facts. As Essex isn't Luton approach it isn't relevant to us what Luton weather you have or your aircraft type. Essex radar just does the initial sequencing for Luton but isn't Luton approach.
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What does it say at the end of the ATIS broadcast? Something about: "Advise information X received on first contact with....??"
Does it say Essex Radar or Luton?
Does it say Essex Radar or Luton?
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 6th Jul 2009 at 18:29.
You are required to advise the airport you are inbound to of these facts. As Essex isn't Luton approach it isn't relevant to us what Luton weather you have or your aircraft type. Essex radar just does the initial sequencing for Luton but isn't Luton approach.
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Essex Radar is really Stansted Intermediate Director. I believe it is called Essex Radar because at the time it was introduced Luton Airport objected to their inbounds having to talk to Stansted first!!
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<<Luton Airport objected to their inbounds having to talk to Stansted first!!>>
If that is true it's the most amazing piece of garbage I've ever heard. Northolt doesn't object to traffic talking to Heathrow.
C'mon..... pull the other one!!!
<<because "Essex" is clearly the same prefix as "Stansted">>
I've read that a few times but simply do not understand it.
Nobody has yeat said what the Luton ATIS says.......?
If that is true it's the most amazing piece of garbage I've ever heard. Northolt doesn't object to traffic talking to Heathrow.
C'mon..... pull the other one!!!
<<because "Essex" is clearly the same prefix as "Stansted">>
I've read that a few times but simply do not understand it.
Nobody has yeat said what the Luton ATIS says.......?
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OK here are some facts!
Essex Radar don't request the ATIS confirmation if you are inbound Luton, Luton do.
Essex is never normally mentioned on the ATIS.
We don't always work Essex when inbound to Luton.
Essex Radar don't request the ATIS confirmation if you are inbound Luton, Luton do.
Essex is never normally mentioned on the ATIS.
We don't always work Essex when inbound to Luton.
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OK then, sometimes we are handed over from Essex direct to Luton tower...
As we don't know if thats going to happen in advance, we therefore are obliged to give Essex the full information????
As we don't know if thats going to happen in advance, we therefore are obliged to give Essex the full information????
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Can anyone explain why Luton inbounds are expected to recite type and QNH when in the rest of the world Approach controllers look at thier strips to see what type you are (isn't that what they are for?) and if you've quoted the ATIS they also know what QNH you have, and in any case are going to ask for another readback when cleared to an altitude...How pointless is this?
Also, why does LTN always say "warning stepped climb" and need telling type with the departure clearance when nowhere else does? Why don't they also say "warning multiple turns and don't forget to follow the SID" or "put your wheels up" and "don't forget your checklists" too?
Bizarre place, not entirely of this world.
Also, why does LTN always say "warning stepped climb" and need telling type with the departure clearance when nowhere else does? Why don't they also say "warning multiple turns and don't forget to follow the SID" or "put your wheels up" and "don't forget your checklists" too?
Bizarre place, not entirely of this world.
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Agaricus,
I'd imagine all these things are because pilots and operators are sometimes screwing up and causing incidents which could result in losses of separation.
I'd imagine all these things are because pilots and operators are sometimes screwing up and causing incidents which could result in losses of separation.
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AG.. Inbounds to just about every UK airfield have to "recite" aircraft type because airlines are notorious for changing types without informing ATC. Next time you are flying a small aircraft and end up 3 miles behind a heavy somewhere outside the UK, that's why! Flight progress strips carry a great deal of information; aircraft type is about the only item which is frequently wrong.
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Just as an aside
When departing North Weald IFR to the west towards BPK the departure clearance is always remain OCA (outside controlled airspace) however this puts aircraft below the MSA (below 1500 qnh) so doesn't seem safe or sensible. Why not issue a clearance to enter controlled airspace to BPK at a specific time, alt and with specific squawk ?
Another GOTCHA is that the approved flight plan clearance is often to waypoints that if taken literally would mean a route direct through luton, london city, Heathrow or stanstead e.g. direct biggin - however there is also the condition to remain OCA until approved in so why issue the remain clear of controlled airspace if the routing on the approved plan is direct through ?? The flight plan should be taken literally but often cannot due "remain OCA"
Just trying to "tidy" things up a bit - As we get more light jets operating in and out of EGSX I think NATS will need to get a bit smarter with how they handle them (and I think they do a great job but the procedures are inneficient at present and could EASILY lead to safety issues).
Thoughts ?
When departing North Weald IFR to the west towards BPK the departure clearance is always remain OCA (outside controlled airspace) however this puts aircraft below the MSA (below 1500 qnh) so doesn't seem safe or sensible. Why not issue a clearance to enter controlled airspace to BPK at a specific time, alt and with specific squawk ?
Another GOTCHA is that the approved flight plan clearance is often to waypoints that if taken literally would mean a route direct through luton, london city, Heathrow or stanstead e.g. direct biggin - however there is also the condition to remain OCA until approved in so why issue the remain clear of controlled airspace if the routing on the approved plan is direct through ?? The flight plan should be taken literally but often cannot due "remain OCA"
Just trying to "tidy" things up a bit - As we get more light jets operating in and out of EGSX I think NATS will need to get a bit smarter with how they handle them (and I think they do a great job but the procedures are inneficient at present and could EASILY lead to safety issues).
Thoughts ?
129.55 Jul 6 circa 2030 local
A bit of thread creep but thanks Luton for speedy VFR crossing yesterday evening.
Not sure if you guys had any other comms issues that day but you were distorted intermittently to me - resulting in distracted comms.
Didn't have any other problems receiving any other agency that day; 125.62, 134.17 etc and could hear other aircraft on 129.55 loud 'n' clear.
We weren't that low at 1500' at 7nm.
Been flying a while now and in far busier airspace than Luton, in countries with less sophisticated equipment -
you made my co-pilots day when you told me to 'sharpen up' but humbly suggest you consider the affects of lightening/weather on your transmitter before you start remonstrating with users - or switch off Martian Mode on tx.
;-)
Not sure if you guys had any other comms issues that day but you were distorted intermittently to me - resulting in distracted comms.
Didn't have any other problems receiving any other agency that day; 125.62, 134.17 etc and could hear other aircraft on 129.55 loud 'n' clear.
We weren't that low at 1500' at 7nm.
Been flying a while now and in far busier airspace than Luton, in countries with less sophisticated equipment -
you made my co-pilots day when you told me to 'sharpen up' but humbly suggest you consider the affects of lightening/weather on your transmitter before you start remonstrating with users - or switch off Martian Mode on tx.
;-)
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When the concept of the airspace and routing changes were first muted, I am afraid to say that Luton airport authority(then not part of the great NATS empire), did object to aircraft talking to stansted radar first.
Thus the generic term "essex" radar was invented. I know this to be true because I was one of the first controllers to work essex radar live at West Drayton!!!
Thus the generic term "essex" radar was invented. I know this to be true because I was one of the first controllers to work essex radar live at West Drayton!!!
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"Warning stepped climb..."
Agaricus bisporus asks:
"...Also, why does LTN always say "warning stepped climb...?"
For (hopefully!) obvious reasons, level busts are highly undesirable. This is particularly true in the busy and complex environment of the London TMA. In an effort to reduce the rising trend for level busts, it was decided a while ago to trial this warning when the clearance was passed by Ground. It was so successful that the trial has become permanent. I reckon this makes it bearable.
As for reporting type on first contact, it's not unknown for something entirely different from that advertised on the strip/EFPS to emerge from the murk. Reporting the type merely ensures that correct vortex wake separation is applied, and other aspects of a/c performance correctly anticipated.
Hope that helps.
"...Also, why does LTN always say "warning stepped climb...?"
For (hopefully!) obvious reasons, level busts are highly undesirable. This is particularly true in the busy and complex environment of the London TMA. In an effort to reduce the rising trend for level busts, it was decided a while ago to trial this warning when the clearance was passed by Ground. It was so successful that the trial has become permanent. I reckon this makes it bearable.
As for reporting type on first contact, it's not unknown for something entirely different from that advertised on the strip/EFPS to emerge from the murk. Reporting the type merely ensures that correct vortex wake separation is applied, and other aspects of a/c performance correctly anticipated.
Hope that helps.
