Keep clear of controlled airspace!
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Airspace- 1 word
what?
You mean counting is important in this job.
You think being told to remain outside controlled airspace is treating you like crap? talk to my girlfriend, she'll educate you
Made me feel better though 
what?
You mean counting is important in this job.
... and telling management that "he didn't sound crap, but I thought I'd treat him as crap anyway" wouldn't be frowned upon ... ?
... so clearly "ROCAS" didn't have any effect on that one, then ...
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According to mr.777, who must be a very arrogant controller and rather typical of the unpleasant controller no one wants to encounter, I am being give a BASIC INSTRUCTION! Has he ever left his building and discovered that there is a mass of non-controlled airspace out there, and if an aircraft is passing within a dozen miles of a CTZ or CTA Unit it might just be a useful thing to give a call to the controlling unit as a courtesy?
Why does mr.777 assume that every call requires an INSTRUCTION in return? It is being given instructions when one is on own nav, well away from CAS, and not intending to go into it, that can get tedious, and it is increasingly being done needlessly. (mr.777, I realise that you had no idea that this was happening.)
Why does mr.777 assume that every call requires an INSTRUCTION in return? It is being given instructions when one is on own nav, well away from CAS, and not intending to go into it, that can get tedious, and it is increasingly being done needlessly. (mr.777, I realise that you had no idea that this was happening.)
Did you actually read a word I said?? For instance the fact that I maybe to0 busy identify to you and therefore ROCAS is just another safety barrier. I would suggest that you re-read what I posted.
I also,wasn't referring to the entire GA community, just pilots like you who think they have some God-given right to fly wherever the they want whenever they want. Frankly, I couldn't give a toss what you think about me...I just pray that you don't come anywhere near my airspace....like your 5 pals did last weekend which I had to file on. No problems though, we only had to break 3 a/c off their approach....but hey, as long as you're doing what you want who cares eh??
Aussie Andy...thank you for restoring my faith in GA pilots. Riverboat, I suggest you read what he posted and wind your neck in before you start criticising ATCOs. And you wonder why people get refused entry into CAS with an attitude like yours
fact is - and I know it is a corny cliché - but "you lot are down there because we are up here, and not the other way round".
Last edited by mr.777; 8th May 2009 at 11:55.
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There are ways of minimising CAS busts - education and understanding will certainly help - but arrogant pomposity is counter-productive and certainly won't.
You have a nice day ...
JD
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without trying to sound too pathetic, maybe the passengers and crew of Aeromexico 498 would have appreciated a reminder to a couple of GA pilots that day, to "ROCAS"...
I am an ATCO and pilot and never found the phrase ROCAS offensive when flying. It just reinforces what I already know. No damage done. If a simple instruction like that upsets you, then you got some serious issues !
Besides, if you are instructing, it's a good teaching point to discuss with the student. Infringements DO happen, so someone must be doing it, whether it's a distracted competent pilot, or simply a not very competent pilot, or a result of a misunderstanding, in which case that phrase comes handy. If it can stop 1 infringement in 100, then it's a safety improvement.
You could argue that it's an excessive RT loading, but then again, slick RT by all pilots (GA and not) could alleviate RT loading too.
I was a pilot before an ATCO (yeah go on say it, I know you're thinking it) and always found visits at my local ATC units very helpful. Building an "us and them" wall between pilots and ATC (and the other way round) does not help anybody, and this thread is proof this attitude is still quite widespread..
I am an ATCO and pilot and never found the phrase ROCAS offensive when flying. It just reinforces what I already know. No damage done. If a simple instruction like that upsets you, then you got some serious issues !
Besides, if you are instructing, it's a good teaching point to discuss with the student. Infringements DO happen, so someone must be doing it, whether it's a distracted competent pilot, or simply a not very competent pilot, or a result of a misunderstanding, in which case that phrase comes handy. If it can stop 1 infringement in 100, then it's a safety improvement.
You could argue that it's an excessive RT loading, but then again, slick RT by all pilots (GA and not) could alleviate RT loading too.
I was a pilot before an ATCO (yeah go on say it, I know you're thinking it
) and always found visits at my local ATC units very helpful. Building an "us and them" wall between pilots and ATC (and the other way round) does not help anybody, and this thread is proof this attitude is still quite widespread..
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Why can't pilots simply help the poor FISO or ATCO who hasn't gpt a clue that your routing from A to B is not anywhere near controlled airspace byt every time you call them including the phrase "remaining outside controlled airspace".
Then the sequence will be something like;
Heathrow G-ABCD VFR from Strip to Strip overhead Ockham 2400ft routing to Bovingdon VFR remaining outside controlled airspace request......
Hopefully having lsitened to that the controller will not feel the need to tell the pilot to do what the pilot has already said they are doing.
Fortunately, there are very few cases on record of intentional infringement of airspace. i.e. the pilot knew a clearance was required, was aware of their position but ignored that issue and flew through the airspace regardless.
In the majority of cases, infringements are pilots who intended to remain outside, who tried to remain outside, who thought they were outside and who did not want to be inside but unfortunately they were found to be inside controlled airspace.
So then the above scenario runs like;
GABCD report your position
GABCD position is abc remaining outside controlled airspace
GABCD squawk ident
GABCD your position is xyz and you have infringed the control zone.
Radar control servive leave the zone to the west not above 1500ft.
The "remain outside controlled airspace expect onward clearance at.... timecheck ...." is simply to prevent progress of a flight into controlled airspace before a clearance is issued.
It may stop the pilot enterring controlled airspace intentionally because they mistakenly thought they had a clearance but it will never change the accidental infrigment because by definition it was not intended.
Finally just love the "my airspace" comment above.
Can anyone supply infringement rates for other forms of regulated airspace i.e. Prohibited, Restricted and Danger Areas. I know that many dnager areas can be entered at one's own risk but many have bylaws preventing this course of action.
Finally, where in the books does it say that an ATCO or FISO can issue an instruction to a flight in class G who is not in receipt of any service other than an alerting service?
Perhaps the word "request" need to be added i.e. the R/T should be a simple snappy;
"request you remain outside controlled airspace class A B C and D (but not E) and also TRAs where you can not enter without clearance as well as Restricted areas which exclude your entry plus Danger areas which prohibit your entery while active and also prohibited areas not to mention the airspace within 500ft of any person vessel vehicle or structure.
By the time that got out, the pilot would simply reply;
"zone transit complete changing enroute goodbye"
Perhaps controllers need to see a pilot's licence before giving take-off clearance. Shudder to think that a pilot cleared to take-off who is flying illegally with no licence would stand up in court and say that he was told to take-off by Mr ATCO!
Regards,
DFC
Then the sequence will be something like;
Heathrow G-ABCD VFR from Strip to Strip overhead Ockham 2400ft routing to Bovingdon VFR remaining outside controlled airspace request......
Hopefully having lsitened to that the controller will not feel the need to tell the pilot to do what the pilot has already said they are doing.
Fortunately, there are very few cases on record of intentional infringement of airspace. i.e. the pilot knew a clearance was required, was aware of their position but ignored that issue and flew through the airspace regardless.
In the majority of cases, infringements are pilots who intended to remain outside, who tried to remain outside, who thought they were outside and who did not want to be inside but unfortunately they were found to be inside controlled airspace.
So then the above scenario runs like;
GABCD report your position
GABCD position is abc remaining outside controlled airspace
GABCD squawk ident
GABCD your position is xyz and you have infringed the control zone.
Radar control servive leave the zone to the west not above 1500ft.
The "remain outside controlled airspace expect onward clearance at.... timecheck ...." is simply to prevent progress of a flight into controlled airspace before a clearance is issued.
It may stop the pilot enterring controlled airspace intentionally because they mistakenly thought they had a clearance but it will never change the accidental infrigment because by definition it was not intended.
Finally just love the "my airspace" comment above.
Can anyone supply infringement rates for other forms of regulated airspace i.e. Prohibited, Restricted and Danger Areas. I know that many dnager areas can be entered at one's own risk but many have bylaws preventing this course of action.
Finally, where in the books does it say that an ATCO or FISO can issue an instruction to a flight in class G who is not in receipt of any service other than an alerting service?
Perhaps the word "request" need to be added i.e. the R/T should be a simple snappy;
"request you remain outside controlled airspace class A B C and D (but not E) and also TRAs where you can not enter without clearance as well as Restricted areas which exclude your entry plus Danger areas which prohibit your entery while active and also prohibited areas not to mention the airspace within 500ft of any person vessel vehicle or structure.
By the time that got out, the pilot would simply reply;
"zone transit complete changing enroute goodbye"
Perhaps controllers need to see a pilot's licence before giving take-off clearance. Shudder to think that a pilot cleared to take-off who is flying illegally with no licence would stand up in court and say that he was told to take-off by Mr ATCO!
Regards,
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 8th May 2009 at 14:49.
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At least somebody has a sense of humour
Jumbo Driver..I shall have a blinding day as I'm off work now and so won't have to bother filling in numerous MORs for aircraft that have infringed my airspace...hold on, can't call it that can I....sorry, airspace for which I am responsible.
As for authority gradient...practice what you preach. Arrogant pomposity? People in glass houses....
Jumbo Driver..I shall have a blinding day as I'm off work now and so won't have to bother filling in numerous MORs for aircraft that have infringed my airspace...hold on, can't call it that can I....sorry, airspace for which I am responsible.
As for authority gradient...practice what you preach. Arrogant pomposity? People in glass houses....
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DFC said
.
That sounds reasonable and hihghlights that saying ROCAS too ofcten is dangerous.
If it is only said when it looks like an aircraft may enter CAS, then it is likely to make the pilot take notice. If it is said every time when the aircraft is nowhere near CAS and not on course for it, then it will become background noise and pilots will disregard it.
There are many safety studies that show the bad effects of including a warning or similar too often. If its is being said so often that it is annoying some pilots, it is almost certainly going unheard by others
In the majority of cases, infringements are pilots who intended to remain outside, who tried to remain outside, who thought they were outside and who did not want to be inside but unfortunately they were found to be inside controlled airspace
That sounds reasonable and hihghlights that saying ROCAS too ofcten is dangerous.
If it is only said when it looks like an aircraft may enter CAS, then it is likely to make the pilot take notice. If it is said every time when the aircraft is nowhere near CAS and not on course for it, then it will become background noise and pilots will disregard it.
There are many safety studies that show the bad effects of including a warning or similar too often. If its is being said so often that it is annoying some pilots, it is almost certainly going unheard by others
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MATS pt1 sect 1 chpt 5 1.1.3
also, at no point would you only be receiving an alerting service, you would always be receiving a basic service too.
also, at no point would you only be receiving an alerting service, you would always be receiving a basic service too.
Alerting service provided to all on frequency.
In relation to the Flight Information Service Suite, the type of service has to be agreed.
Hard to provide a basic service to a flight that the only thing you know about is it's callsign and that you have told it to remain outside controlled airspace.
The best one is;
London Information G-ABCD.
G-ABCD London information remain outside controlled airspace, standby.
.......G-ABCD London Information sorry for the delay pass your message.
G-ABCD is an aircraft from Glasgow to Paris FL350 2 miles north of LAKEY request the latest weather for Oxford.
Regards,
DFC
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Sect 1 Chapt 5 1.1.3 says nothing about giving instructions.
And for the services, sect 1 chp 1 8.3 "All ATC units shall provide a Basic service and alerting service to aircraft under their jurisdiction."
You cant be giving one without the other!
I like the anecdote though, did that really happen? A touch embarrasing for the fiso maybe!
regards
LOA
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1 Definition
A Basic Service is an ATS provided for the purpose of giving advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flights. This may include weather information, changes of serviceability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes, general airspace activity information, and any other information likely to affect safety. The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilot’s responsibility. Basic Service relies on the pilot avoiding other traffic, unaided by controllers/FISOs. It is essential that a pilot receiving this service remains alert to the fact that, unlike a Traffic Service and a Deconfliction Service, the provider of a Basic Service is not required to monitor the flight.
A Basic Service is an ATS provided for the purpose of giving advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flights. This may include weather information, changes of serviceability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes, general airspace activity information, and any other information likely to affect safety. The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilot’s responsibility. Basic Service relies on the pilot avoiding other traffic, unaided by controllers/FISOs. It is essential that a pilot receiving this service remains alert to the fact that, unlike a Traffic Service and a Deconfliction Service, the provider of a Basic Service is not required to monitor the flight.
All you really need know is the callsign ... I would say that, in your anecdotal example, you are effectively providing Basic Service ...
JD