Keep clear of controlled airspace!
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Keep clear of controlled airspace!
This is being uttered to aircraft not intending to join CA by at least 50% of ATCOs these days so presumably it is a "new thing" to say. It is usually a totally useless piece of advice and it is another sign of dumbing down and saying so many things that it is getting increasingly difficult to respond to everything that is said without asking for a repeat. Net result: too much talking.
If it is being required because the CAA actually believe that it will help stop pilots from wandering into CA without a clearance, I can think of many other things to tell a pilot so that he is aware of some hazard or other. Where do you draw the line?
Another bad thing about it is that it is being uttered by rote. Just another thing ATCOs always say. Something that eventually you do not hear, or heed. ATCOs are being drilled so much they are becoming robotic, and eventually they will be replaced by computers. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic.
If it is being required because the CAA actually believe that it will help stop pilots from wandering into CA without a clearance, I can think of many other things to tell a pilot so that he is aware of some hazard or other. Where do you draw the line?
Another bad thing about it is that it is being uttered by rote. Just another thing ATCOs always say. Something that eventually you do not hear, or heed. ATCOs are being drilled so much they are becoming robotic, and eventually they will be replaced by computers. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic.
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Interesting... Might I ask as to what sort of units are saying this to you? Is it area controllers, or approach units, or just a specific unit?
I believe the phrase is actually 'remain outside of controlled airspace' too, but that's a minor detail. I dont know of any increased requirement to say it to everyone, and I havent heard anyone say it other than when its necessary.
As for your last paragraph, I genuinely believe that ATCO's wont be replaced by computers for a very very long time, if ever. You might want to visit some units and then you will realise why, particularly if you go on a bad weather day (ie plenty of CB's, turbulence and icing). Its much more likely that pilots will be replaced completely by computers first, and I cant see that happening either even though the technology is available to do it already!
LOA
ps, you're doing exceptionally well if you've spoken to 50% of controllers, I reckon i'm only at 4% of the UK ones!
I believe the phrase is actually 'remain outside of controlled airspace' too, but that's a minor detail. I dont know of any increased requirement to say it to everyone, and I havent heard anyone say it other than when its necessary.
As for your last paragraph, I genuinely believe that ATCO's wont be replaced by computers for a very very long time, if ever. You might want to visit some units and then you will realise why, particularly if you go on a bad weather day (ie plenty of CB's, turbulence and icing). Its much more likely that pilots will be replaced completely by computers first, and I cant see that happening either even though the technology is available to do it already!
LOA
ps, you're doing exceptionally well if you've spoken to 50% of controllers, I reckon i'm only at 4% of the UK ones!
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or just a specific unit?
Can't speak for my colleagues but if you sound like an idiot and/or act like an idiot and/or I have good reason to believe that you are an idiot then I might tell you to avoid controlled airspace unless I have cleared you otherwise.
It takes 2 seconds max and it is worth it to reduce any liability that I or my employer might have in the event that you cock up on my watch.
I of course expect to be called many things for saying such nasty and offensive words as this. But I don't care.
It takes 2 seconds max and it is worth it to reduce any liability that I or my employer might have in the event that you cock up on my watch.
I of course expect to be called many things for saying such nasty and offensive words as this. But I don't care.
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Thanks perusal for you tail covering response. I fly, on average, 5 times a day from a flying school close to Class D airspace and underneath a variety of Class D/E TMA. I could probably tell you which particular tree is inside/outside the various bits of CAS. We also have the luxury of immediately recognisable callsigns. Nevertheless, ATC always tell us to remain clear of CAS as we depart our ATZ away from their CTR/CTA. For example:
"XXX radar, C/S request Basic Service"
"C/S, XXX Radar, remain clear of CAS, pass your details"
"C/S, C172 from EG** to EG** not above 2000ft routing ..... remaining clear of CAS request basic service"
"C/S, XXX QNH 1010, Basic Service not above 2000ft, remain clear of CAS"
Now the HF element of me thinks that the efficacy of such a statement is negated if used in almost every single transmission regardless of it's relevance.
PS. I trust I don't sound like an 'idiot' on the R/T.
"XXX radar, C/S request Basic Service"
"C/S, XXX Radar, remain clear of CAS, pass your details"
"C/S, C172 from EG** to EG** not above 2000ft routing ..... remaining clear of CAS request basic service"
"C/S, XXX QNH 1010, Basic Service not above 2000ft, remain clear of CAS"
Now the HF element of me thinks that the efficacy of such a statement is negated if used in almost every single transmission regardless of it's relevance.
PS. I trust I don't sound like an 'idiot' on the R/T.
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<<Frankly, it's a bit pathetic.>>
Funny, that's the conclusion I'd drawn about your post... I immediately assumed that you were a PPL but your profile says ATPL, which astounds me.
It is definitely not a new phrase. I started working in UK Controlled Airspace in January 1972 and from the first day I worked on radar I used the phrase "remain clear of controlled airspace" Why? Because pilots wishing to enter CAS would state what they wanted to do and in the absence of a clearance they would sometimes just do it. If a pilot is incapable of obeying that simple instruction he shouldn't be in an aeroplane, let alone up in the air.
"Remain clear of CAS" is en excellent phrase and does what it says on the tin..
Funny, that's the conclusion I'd drawn about your post... I immediately assumed that you were a PPL but your profile says ATPL, which astounds me.
It is definitely not a new phrase. I started working in UK Controlled Airspace in January 1972 and from the first day I worked on radar I used the phrase "remain clear of controlled airspace" Why? Because pilots wishing to enter CAS would state what they wanted to do and in the absence of a clearance they would sometimes just do it. If a pilot is incapable of obeying that simple instruction he shouldn't be in an aeroplane, let alone up in the air.
"Remain clear of CAS" is en excellent phrase and does what it says on the tin..
"Remain OUTSIDE controlled airspace" is better - and is the correct phrase. It also minimises the risk of someone misinterpreting the word "clear" and thus the complete opposite achieved of that which was intended!
However, do agree with various sentiments about how unnecessary it should be and how self-defeating it could become.
2 s
However, do agree with various sentiments about how unnecessary it should be and how self-defeating it could become.
2 s
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I recall it started as one of nats' 'best practices'. In the UK these independent 'best practices' just muddy the waters between what is and what is not official CAA procedure.
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PPS. I now don't bother calling them for the majority of the time. An awful lot of RT time for a non-service that I don't need; better to just spend the time looking out of the window and navigating my aeroplane.
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I was taught to say this years ago during a stint at Coventry (DX Wombat - you should think yourself lucky Brum give you the time of day, they used to palm stuff off on us at Cov just because they couldn't be arsed talking to it).
I still say it and the main reason why, is that my current unit sees a high proportion of GA traffic which is not based in the Bristol area and therefore is not familiar with the airspace. I have lost count of the times GA traffic has called, stated that they will remain OCAS or give a routing that should keep them out of CAS and then find myself saying 'turn right/left heading/descend below xxxxfeet to leave CAS'.
Quite frankly it gets on my tits that my train of thought whilst vectoring commercial traffic inside CAS is interrupted by some numpty who is incapable of following a simple instruction/request. It's not that easy to start avoiding action inside a Control Zone when the sequence you have set up has limited space to manouevre in.
If the standard of R/T displayed by GA pilots is anything to go by, I as an ATCO find it hard to have confidence in their flying abilities.
That said, there are some very good GA pilots out there who know their stuff and don't cause problems. If the CAA paid more attention to reports filed by ATCOs (and grew a pair of balls), they could weed out the numpties and start refusing PPL renewals based on bad/dangerous performance.
As an aside, I once filed an MOR on a CPL/ATPL pilot (who was flying a Cub on his day off) because he thought it would be funny to buzz a BA46 which happened to be lined up on the runway. He flew over it at about 100 feet despite being told not to do so and then flew down the runway at less than 50 feet before leaving CAS without speaking again. I gave the CAA his name, occupation, company, position and based airport. Their reponse, six months later they said they couldn't find him and that no action would be taken.
Covering my arse by saying 'remain outside CAS'? You bet I am!
I still say it and the main reason why, is that my current unit sees a high proportion of GA traffic which is not based in the Bristol area and therefore is not familiar with the airspace. I have lost count of the times GA traffic has called, stated that they will remain OCAS or give a routing that should keep them out of CAS and then find myself saying 'turn right/left heading/descend below xxxxfeet to leave CAS'.
Quite frankly it gets on my tits that my train of thought whilst vectoring commercial traffic inside CAS is interrupted by some numpty who is incapable of following a simple instruction/request. It's not that easy to start avoiding action inside a Control Zone when the sequence you have set up has limited space to manouevre in.
If the standard of R/T displayed by GA pilots is anything to go by, I as an ATCO find it hard to have confidence in their flying abilities.
That said, there are some very good GA pilots out there who know their stuff and don't cause problems. If the CAA paid more attention to reports filed by ATCOs (and grew a pair of balls), they could weed out the numpties and start refusing PPL renewals based on bad/dangerous performance.
As an aside, I once filed an MOR on a CPL/ATPL pilot (who was flying a Cub on his day off) because he thought it would be funny to buzz a BA46 which happened to be lined up on the runway. He flew over it at about 100 feet despite being told not to do so and then flew down the runway at less than 50 feet before leaving CAS without speaking again. I gave the CAA his name, occupation, company, position and based airport. Their reponse, six months later they said they couldn't find him and that no action would be taken.
Covering my arse by saying 'remain outside CAS'? You bet I am!
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The phrase 'remain outside controlled airspace' has always been an option for ATCO's to use, however, it recently became mandatory if the ATCO cannot give a joining clearance etc to the pilot without delay. Now, i have to apologise here, i can't remember which MATS update/ATSIN etc etc it was in so i stand to be corrected.However, i'm fairly sure that's why the phrase is more 'prominent' now on the r/t.
There were conversations along the lines of dumbing down, pilots should know not to enter CAS without a clearance etc between ATCO's when and since it was introduced.
We seem to be stuck in a vicious circle of lowering standards; airspace infringements are rising, caa introduce a new phrase telling pilots what they should already bl*** know, phrase gets overused and becomes just another pointless procedure designed to protect against some sort of litigation. I can see it coming.... 'sorry your honour but the controller never said 'remain clear...' so i thought i could transit through ....
O.K. i may be pushing it a bit, but my experience matches that of STANDARD NOISE's The only feedback that CAA ever gives is 'no action taken, incident closed' following an MOR for infringement.
There were conversations along the lines of dumbing down, pilots should know not to enter CAS without a clearance etc between ATCO's when and since it was introduced.
We seem to be stuck in a vicious circle of lowering standards; airspace infringements are rising, caa introduce a new phrase telling pilots what they should already bl*** know, phrase gets overused and becomes just another pointless procedure designed to protect against some sort of litigation. I can see it coming.... 'sorry your honour but the controller never said 'remain clear...' so i thought i could transit through ....
O.K. i may be pushing it a bit, but my experience matches that of STANDARD NOISE's The only feedback that CAA ever gives is 'no action taken, incident closed' following an MOR for infringement.
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The phrase 'remain outside controlled airspace' has always been an option for ATCO's to use, however, it recently became mandatory if the ATCO cannot give a joining clearance etc to the pilot without delay. Now, i have to apologise here, i can't remember which MATS update/ATSIN etc etc it was in so i stand to be corrected.However, i'm fairly sure that's why the phrase is more 'prominent' now on the r/t.
CAP 493 SI 2008/02: Use of Phraseology 'Remain Outside Controlled Airspace' | Publications | CAA
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Keep "CLEAR" of CAS
I have to agree with Standard Noise post. As a GA pilot(Commercial IFR Rated) of a twin Turbo Prop aircraft the standard of R/T is very mixed. I fly out of Coventry and BHam on a regular basis sometimes IFR sometimes VFR and sometimes on an airways flight plan. Bham ATC make life very difficult and have a very arrogant attitude towards GA aircraft and do little to help. As someone who prides himself as a GA pilot to maintain the quality of R/T displayed by the Big Iron world I get very frustrated when BHam even when there is minimal traffic under their control respond with KCOCAS when trying to reach Coventry forcing you through a very narrow corridor to the East of the Zone. I feel fortunate that I have TCAS and would not use that corridor without. Contrast this with London who do everything possible to help pilots in to Biggin despite a much more conjested airspace. I agree that the statement KCOCAS is important and makes thnigs very clear when the airways are busy.
My ask is that ATCO treat others as they would like to be treated themselves if they were pilots. I cannot praise London enough and suggest Luton and BHam controllers spend time in their company it would be a good training excercise!
My ask is that ATCO treat others as they would like to be treated themselves if they were pilots. I cannot praise London enough and suggest Luton and BHam controllers spend time in their company it would be a good training excercise!
As several posts have indicated, it is not "KCOCAS" - it's ROCAS. If some people do not appreciate the potential hazard in the first, perhaps they do need to be reminded of the second!
2 s
2 s
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Midland - if you are hearing both on a regular basis (and i believe you!), in this case i would take the chance of professional one-upmanship, and use the phrase in the reply 'remain outside CAS' ! 2 sheds point is quite valid that either KCOCAS or RCOCAS could be misleading - especially if a foerign pilot is involved. The word 'clear' should not be used in this phrase at all.
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As for your last paragraph, I genuinely believe that ATCO's wont be replaced by computers for a very very long time, if ever. You might want to visit some units and then you will realise why, particularly if you go on a bad weather day (ie plenty of CB's, turbulence and icing). Its much more likely that pilots will be replaced completely by computers first, and I cant see that happening either even though the technology is available to do it already!
There is a much greater military/economic advantage to eliminating pilots so they have been done first, but ATCOs could be replaced. In fact the increase in usage of autonomous UAVs will make it more likely because it will weaken the public perception of the need for humans in the loop.
Its probably a little way off yet, but someday a successor of barron will compare wage costs with the one off costs of building an automated system and get a different answer from today
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ProM
you're possibly correct, however you would need to have far more regimented airspace to start with... automation will work with simple airspace but it will bring with it a much less efficient operation especially in and around busy TMAs.
You'd also need a human element present for any emergencies etc. Automated ATC might be possible in the future, but it won't replace ATCOs in this century.
Pilotless pasenger jets is more readily achievable (like, right now), however the flying public would in all likelihood be the biggest hurdle to that happening.
you're possibly correct, however you would need to have far more regimented airspace to start with... automation will work with simple airspace but it will bring with it a much less efficient operation especially in and around busy TMAs.
You'd also need a human element present for any emergencies etc. Automated ATC might be possible in the future, but it won't replace ATCOs in this century.
Pilotless pasenger jets is more readily achievable (like, right now), however the flying public would in all likelihood be the biggest hurdle to that happening.
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Another bad thing about it is that it is being uttered by rote. Just another thing ATCOs always say. Something that eventually you do not hear, or heed. ATCOs are being drilled so much they are becoming robotic, and eventually they will be replaced by computers. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic.
I would suggest that you have never seen the consequences of one of your GA chums infringeing LL or KK airspace and the amount of problems it causes when we have to break a/c off the approach or send them around because some idiot thought he had clearance to enter CAS. This is why we say ROCAS. It is not something done by rote. It is something done to protect our licences.
What you and your buddies tend to forget is that we are providing an IFR approach service into a major airfield. If we have time to deal with you we will....if not then sorry, but remain outside CAS and route aorund the zone.
And before you get all high and mighty, 2 things...
1) A lot of GA pilots are perfectly capable of good navigation. To those of you to which this applies, this response is not intended to offend you.
2) I would suggest you get yourself down to TC at Swanwick , preferably on a Bank Holiday weekend like the one just gone ( a record number of infringers I believe) and see what REALLY goes on before casting aspersions on myself and my robotic colleagues.