Deconfused service please sir!
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Deconfused service please sir!
I have received a CD from Airspace & Safety Initiative - am still wondering what finally to do with it, I have used other as glass mats and keep one in my rucksack in case of a crash landing in a remote desert...
Can any ATC tell me:
1. Why the change from flight info; radar info and radar advisory - these tags are logical, easy to understand and easy to say?
2. If after the changeover date I ask for one of the above what will happen?? "Sorry Sir this service is no longer" available followed by an engaged sound..?
3. In simple terms the differences/ comparisons from / with the present set up.
Thanks
Can any ATC tell me:
1. Why the change from flight info; radar info and radar advisory - these tags are logical, easy to understand and easy to say?
2. If after the changeover date I ask for one of the above what will happen?? "Sorry Sir this service is no longer" available followed by an engaged sound..?
3. In simple terms the differences/ comparisons from / with the present set up.
Thanks
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As far as I understand it, it's mainly just a name change "to eradicate ambiguity" with the existing phrases...or something like that!!
FIS = Basic Service - BS
RIS = Traffic Service - TS
RAS = Deconfliction - DS
BS available everywhere, in Controlled Airspace and outside CAS. DS & TS outside CAS available to both VFR/IFR. Receivers of DS & TS are assumed to be capable to comply with any ATC instructions, eg. expected to be able to comply with IMC if ATC instructions cause an a/c to enter cloud.
As for asking for a RIS after next thursday, I doubt you'd be the only one, and traffic permitting, a Traffic Service offered in its place.
FIS = Basic Service - BS
RIS = Traffic Service - TS
RAS = Deconfliction - DS
BS available everywhere, in Controlled Airspace and outside CAS. DS & TS outside CAS available to both VFR/IFR. Receivers of DS & TS are assumed to be capable to comply with any ATC instructions, eg. expected to be able to comply with IMC if ATC instructions cause an a/c to enter cloud.
As for asking for a RIS after next thursday, I doubt you'd be the only one, and traffic permitting, a Traffic Service offered in its place.
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To answer 2)
Requests for FIS at non-radar units:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, Basic Service'.
Requests for FIS at surveillance equipped Air Traffic Control Units:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require basic service'.
Requests for RIS:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require Traffic Service'.
Requests for RAS:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require Deconfliction Service'.
Requests for FIS at non-radar units:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, Basic Service'.
Requests for FIS at surveillance equipped Air Traffic Control Units:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require basic service'.
Requests for RIS:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require Traffic Service'.
Requests for RAS:
'Revised air traffic services outside controlled airspace have come into effect, confirm you require Deconfliction Service'.
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BS available everywhere, in Controlled Airspace and outside CAS.
2. If after the changeover date I ask for one of the above what will happen?? "Sorry Sir this service is no longer" available followed by an engaged sound..?
3. In simple terms the differences/ comparisons from / with the present set up.
The traffic service will be what is now the RIS
The deconfliction Service will be what is now the RAS
The main difference is that all services will be available to VFR traffic whereas currently the RAS is only available to IFR traffic
Last edited by radar707; 3rd Mar 2009 at 22:40.
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BS available everywhere, in Controlled Airspace and outside CAS.
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Other than a CD-ROM what other 'training' are other units getting for this fundamental change or are you just expected to 'learn it' with live traffic ?
Is anyone getting simulator time ?
Is anyone getting simulator time ?
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The first sentence in the CD's 'overview' states:
So in the short term we can look forward to more confusion and a lack of standardisation. 
A review of Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace (ATSOCAS) was initiated by the CAA as a direct response to Air Accident Investigation Branch and AIRPROX reports which raised concerns about the lack of standardisation of service delivery and the confusion that this caused.
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Thank you for the responses, none without merit, and in a few word giving me a better insight than I was able to gain from the CD ; a short booklet with reference to internet links would have been more digestible (in case anyone at the A&SI is out there).
I do, however, think the money would have been better spent in providing seminars to local flying clubs and a booklet recapping on the current system, as changes of terminology seem slightly pointless and likely to cause more confusion.
The use of the word RADAR is instructive and not wasted, and availability of the DECONFLICTION (try saying it three times in a row !!!) to pilots flying VFR seems a bit pointless as if the visability is good enough that same pilot (without an IMC) may fly IFR and take the RAS under current rules (if I understand them correctly).
I do, however, think the money would have been better spent in providing seminars to local flying clubs and a booklet recapping on the current system, as changes of terminology seem slightly pointless and likely to cause more confusion.
The use of the word RADAR is instructive and not wasted, and availability of the DECONFLICTION (try saying it three times in a row !!!) to pilots flying VFR seems a bit pointless as if the visability is good enough that same pilot (without an IMC) may fly IFR and take the RAS under current rules (if I understand them correctly).
Last edited by 767bill; 4th Mar 2009 at 20:08. Reason: spelling
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I do, however, think the money would have been better spent in providing seminars to local flying clubs and a booklet recapping on the current system, as changes of terminology seem slightly pointless and likely to cause more confusion.
However ... the ones behind desks justifying their highly paid pontifications and writing the rules don't actually give a to$$ about the realities, practicalities and difficulties experienced by those with licences. Ho hum.
An important thing to point out is that, under a FIS at the moment, as a GA pilot I would normally get traffic information from the controller if he/she is not too busy.
Under the new system, if you want the controller to give you traffic information you must ask for a 'traffic' service. If it's a nice day and every man and his dog is flying, the controller will probably be too busy to provide a traffic service, and the most you will get is 'basic'.
With a basic service the controller is not allowed to give any traffic information, as the CAA do not want "blurring of the edges" when it comes to the different types of service.(unless the controller thinks there is a "definite risk of collision").
In other words, after March 12th, make sure we all keep a very good lookout!!
Maybe they chose this date so that the next day when it all goes pear-shaped, the CAA can blame it on the fact that it's Friday 13th!!!
Under the new system, if you want the controller to give you traffic information you must ask for a 'traffic' service. If it's a nice day and every man and his dog is flying, the controller will probably be too busy to provide a traffic service, and the most you will get is 'basic'.
With a basic service the controller is not allowed to give any traffic information, as the CAA do not want "blurring of the edges" when it comes to the different types of service.(unless the controller thinks there is a "definite risk of collision").
In other words, after March 12th, make sure we all keep a very good lookout!!
Maybe they chose this date so that the next day when it all goes pear-shaped, the CAA can blame it on the fact that it's Friday 13th!!!
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Originally Posted by Newark_Anagram
In other words, after March 12th, make sure we all keep a very good lookout!!
As opposed to what you are doing now?
Edit
You will still get generic traffic info from me on a BS (workload permiting) , but then again Im doing this all procedurally, Ive never had radar to blur the services.
Friday the 13th, honestly what the hell were they thinking
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Over the past few months there have been a number of ATSOCAS threads. If you take the trouble to read them all, the one thing that stands out is that in spite of educational CD's, unit approved training plans, booklets, posters, and well-meaning LCE's, the result is confusion, cynicism and mistrust. There are some PPRuNers who confidently profess to have got the new system hacked, but analysis of their posts demonstrates that they, or their respective units, all have differing interpretations of the rules, and Duty of Care. What a c*ck up 
All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not in UK, and I wish you all the very best of luck on the 12th.
All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not in UK, and I wish you all the very best of luck on the 12th.
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Over the past few months there have been a number of ATSOCAS threads. If you take the trouble to read them all, the one thing that stands out is that in spite of educational CD's, unit approved training plans, booklets, posters, and well-meaning LCE's, the result is confusion, cynicism and mistrust. There are some PPRuNers who confidently profess to have got the new system hacked, but analysis of their posts demonstrates that they, or their respective units, all have differing interpretations of the rules, and Duty of Care. What a c*ck up All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not in UK, and I wish you all the very best of luck on the 12th.
Im not saying it couldn't have been better implemented but I'm sure we'll cope.
I pity you radar chappies though, traffic service/Deconfliction service just doesn't have the same ring to it