UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[Bagheera]

T F C dont know who youre mini briefing was from but suggest you speak to somebody who knows the ins and out a lot more clearly.
This deal is for controllers to do met on a nightshift, EVERY nightshift, as well as acting as contingency cover during the day. Would hardly describe that as being limited circumstances.
Also SAMOS (Semi Automated Met Observation System ) has been in place at airfields for many years. It is almost constantly inaccurate in at least one of its observations hence the need for an observer ( ATCO or ATSA ) to correct the information before it is broadcast.
Management would undoubtedly wish to introduce FAMOS ( Full Automated etc ) but unless there is a major improvement in the standard of observations achieved by this equipment its implementation should be heavily resisted.

[10W]

I wouldn't imagine any bookie would take a bet but it's a racing certainty that NSL staff will get shafted and (overall) NERL staff will see a few £££'s dangled in front of them and take the deal.

Divided and conquered ...and we have been for years.

[BOBBLEHAT]

If NSL are getting to vote individually on this deal prior to the NERL votes, how can they be 'shafted' by anyone other than themselves?

[Me Me Me Me]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood the NTUS to be made up 3 of constituent groups: PCS, Prospect ATCO and Prospect ATSS... No NERL or NSL groups ballots.

Or have I missed something?

[ayrprox]

Am i right in thinking that the ballot closes a couple of weeks before the company announces its profits for the year? If this is the case, is it the union that sets this date, or the company, and have we not learnt from the last deal how bad an idea this is. I'd like to vote no just to see how badly (or not) the company is really doing , before judging if this deal is really a good one.

[Avoiding_Action]

Me Me Me Me you have missed the union communications stating that NERL employees will only get to vote if NSL vote to accept the pay deal.

[Data Dad]

My understanding is that all Prospect ATCOs get to vote - they then count NSL votes first - if its a majority 'yes' they then count the NERL votes to get a final score.

In view of the above speculation about an NSL 'NO' vote - I wonder what would happen if NSL vote 'YES' - say 51% - 49% BUT the overall vote is a 'NO'? NSL get the payrise and NERL don't? It works both ways remember.......

Just for clarity - I am firmly in the 'No' camp but I suspect that a lot of apathy will rule yet again and 'money now' seems to be important (understandably) with a lot of my colleagues.

DD

[anotherthing]

Also, the task is likely to disappear in a couple of years time anyway when SAMOS is introduced

Your 'someone in the know' is obviously not a qualified Met Observer then. SAMOS is Semi Automated. There still needs to be check of the information, and a proper obs done every couple of hours.

[Gonzo]

And apparently it was claiming it was CAVOK all last Saturday, while all the aircraft were weather avoiding all over the place.

Some might say it's not even SAMOS!

[thinkofdolphins]

In areas of inclement weather SAMOS needs constant intervention amending the vis, cloud base, whether it is fog or mist, rain or drizzle blah blah blah. Try doing that on a busy Monday morning running back and forth from an operational position, as the whole point of met is to give the aircraft the most accurate current weather. Distractions while plugged in are frowned upon by management yet they want their controllers to vote to make a distraction part of their job. Go figure.
The sole purpose of this vote is to further cut support staff numbers, no other reason.

[Mantovani]

The sole purpose is to increase profits.

[The Fat Controller]

Apologies for my error in post 2602.

The incoming system should have been FAMOS apparently

SAMOS operation will be an additional task in the interim, to be undertaken by someone NOT in an operational position, according to a different Union voice, so no jumping around should be required

[Mad As A Mad Thing]

SAMOS operation will be an additional task in the interim, to be undertaken by someone NOT in an operational position, according to a different Union voice, so no jumping around should be required

That'll be a clever trick then. Just how many ATCO's does anyone think we have sitting around in these non-operational positions? We don't even have enough ATCOs to properly man the operational positions at times.

FFS it makes me Madder than a Mad Thing to see crap like that being spouted.

[Purbeck10]

Rumour control suggests PCS have secured a slightly improved offer for the ATSA and support staff grades, 2012 pay offer is now 4.7% or RPI whichever is smaller, like the ATCO offer this is on Core Pay only and not UHP etc. Still a big fat no from me mind you with all the strings attached remaining unchanged

[The Fat Controller]

Mad, I guess you have not been to a Union briefing as yet

Someone at your workplace will soon be trying to work out the practicalities of doing the SAMOS task, so you can then have your input if you can be bothered to get involved

[eastern wiseguy]

FC

trying to work out the practicalities of doing the SAMOS task

Are you a NERL controller? The following will be a mystery to you in terms of how tightly things have to be run at a contract airport.

I am wondering how I do that with minimal staff manning all positions/facility time and breaks. We are a watch of FIVE. One in tower one in radar one on a break one on leave and a watch manager doing the stuff that comes his/her way.Explain to me WHO will have time to do MET during the day on contingency. Will it be the person on a break? Will that qualify as a breaking of a non responsibility break? What if we are in LVP's?

You have no idea how much I personally think this is a bad idea.....to say nothing of shafting the ATSA's.

[The Fat Controller]

E W

I have worked at a NATS airfield where staffing was as critical as it is where you are, albeit only when the weather was fine, but in those days everybody had to plug in, the watch manager was the most senior person on duty and did his/her share of the work.

I have no problems with NSL ATCOs having the deciding vote, if you guys all think it is not a good deal, then those of us at the centres do not get our votes counted.

The Union briefing and local assessment will answer the questions as to how the Met task can be accomplished.

As for PC ATSAs, we probably have the most understaffed and overworked team in NATS now, following the return to paper strips after the EFD debacle.

However, there have not been ANY compulsory redundancies amongst NATS ATSA staff to date, they have all taken the deals that have been offered and agreed by PCS.

[Hooligan Bill]

E W

I am wondering how I do that with minimal staff manning all positions/facility time and breaks. We are a watch of FIVE. One in tower one in radar one on a break one on leave and a watch manager doing the stuff that comes his/her way.Explain to me WHO will have time to do MET during the day on contingency. Will it be the person on a break? Will that qualify as a breaking of a non responsibility break? What if we are in LVP's?

You can't and therein lies the subtlety of the met agreement.

[eastern wiseguy]

You can't and therein lies the subtlety of the met agreement.

My point entirely.

[Hootin an a roarin]

Over the years I have been continually frustrated at the complete lack of balls Prospect has. If this hadn't had serious implications for NSL atco's and our PCS team mates it would be another comedy roadshow.

Apparantley there is a finite amount of money in the pot, yet PCS stand firm, issue a NO recommendation to it's members and immediately get a better offer.

For f*cks sake Prospect when are you going to finally wake up and understand how to negotiate with bullish managers?

Pathetic yet again.