What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??
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Geffen
I agree with you 100%. I would hope the union likened pay awards to the RPI i.e. cost of living.
A pay award of RPI is a standard of living freeze.
Less than RPI is a cut in standard of living.
A pay award above RPI is an incresae in standard of living.
The company can bleat on all it wants that the RPI has decreased since the figure was taken last August (the figure that should be used), but they (NATS) base their charges for the year on the August RPI.
Therefore, if it is acceptable for NATS to charge its customers Aug RPI even when the RPI is now considerably lower, then it is acceptable for the employees to expect an RPI based pay award.
If NATS had the balls to turn round to its customers and say "the economy has got worse since Aug 2008, therefore we have decided that to help you, our customer, out we are going to take the unusual step of reducing our charges using an interim (say DEC 08) RPI as the new basis", then maybe NATS would have a point in saying they cannot afford an Aug RPI pay rise.
Will NATS cut costs to help its customers? Don't be silly. "In Tune With Our Customers" is a Destinations 2011 headline, but only when it suits NATS... as is "Liberating and Inspiring People"
A few months ago when the first forays into the pay award took place in the midst of the pension 'negotiations', management offered the unions a 1.9% pay rise. The unions rejected it.
Since then:
1. Several months have passed and the economy has worsened.
2. 35% of peope did not bother voting (for whatever reason) in the pension ballot - the thing that has a bigger impact on an individuals future wealth than any other issue. This indicates, rightly or wrongly to management that the workforce are apathetic and that the workforce will accept any old crap.
3. The Union have stated in the circular the came round after the pension ballot that they accept that the company is feeling the pinch.
What does this all mean? Probably that management will try to get away with an even lower offer as the economy has slowed down further...
Stand by for a lower than Aug RPI pay award whilst NATS continues to charge its customers, several of whom have already gone bankrupt, based on the Aug RPI.
I would take a pay freeze if our senior management did (too late though - Mr Barron got his large pay rise agreed a few months before the pension cap was introduced - clever bugger)- I would be even more 'happy' to do so if NATS acknowledged the trouble our customers are having and tried to help them out a little.
Doing so would aid NATS in the long term... after all, if we help our customers now, it means there will be more of them still around to charge when the economy rallies - which it will.
But of course NATS and long term planning/thinking ahead do not go hand in hand.
Note for management lackeys:
To any management lackey out there who says it is unrealistic to expect a pay award of 4.8% (Aug RPI), because prices have gone down since then - you are talking rubbish.
The Aug RPI is used as a snapshot for annual charges. The economy fluctuates. The Aug snapshot is the one we should use for pay awards because the economy will rally and prices will increase again. A one year deal is acceptable, whilst in incertain times, but you can't have your cake and eat it.
Pay awards have always been carried out this way - do not try to move the goal posts just because it suits you.
You were happy enough to accept RPI+0.25% etc 3 year deals in the past when it suited you (i.e. when you were taking money from the pension fund and traffic levels were growing rapidly) - respect you employees and treat us fairly now!
I agree with you 100%. I would hope the union likened pay awards to the RPI i.e. cost of living.
A pay award of RPI is a standard of living freeze.
Less than RPI is a cut in standard of living.
A pay award above RPI is an incresae in standard of living.
The company can bleat on all it wants that the RPI has decreased since the figure was taken last August (the figure that should be used), but they (NATS) base their charges for the year on the August RPI.
Therefore, if it is acceptable for NATS to charge its customers Aug RPI even when the RPI is now considerably lower, then it is acceptable for the employees to expect an RPI based pay award.
If NATS had the balls to turn round to its customers and say "the economy has got worse since Aug 2008, therefore we have decided that to help you, our customer, out we are going to take the unusual step of reducing our charges using an interim (say DEC 08) RPI as the new basis", then maybe NATS would have a point in saying they cannot afford an Aug RPI pay rise.
Will NATS cut costs to help its customers? Don't be silly. "In Tune With Our Customers" is a Destinations 2011 headline, but only when it suits NATS... as is "Liberating and Inspiring People"
A few months ago when the first forays into the pay award took place in the midst of the pension 'negotiations', management offered the unions a 1.9% pay rise. The unions rejected it.
Since then:
1. Several months have passed and the economy has worsened.
2. 35% of peope did not bother voting (for whatever reason) in the pension ballot - the thing that has a bigger impact on an individuals future wealth than any other issue. This indicates, rightly or wrongly to management that the workforce are apathetic and that the workforce will accept any old crap.
3. The Union have stated in the circular the came round after the pension ballot that they accept that the company is feeling the pinch.
What does this all mean? Probably that management will try to get away with an even lower offer as the economy has slowed down further...
Stand by for a lower than Aug RPI pay award whilst NATS continues to charge its customers, several of whom have already gone bankrupt, based on the Aug RPI.
I would take a pay freeze if our senior management did (too late though - Mr Barron got his large pay rise agreed a few months before the pension cap was introduced - clever bugger)- I would be even more 'happy' to do so if NATS acknowledged the trouble our customers are having and tried to help them out a little.
Doing so would aid NATS in the long term... after all, if we help our customers now, it means there will be more of them still around to charge when the economy rallies - which it will.
But of course NATS and long term planning/thinking ahead do not go hand in hand.
Note for management lackeys:
To any management lackey out there who says it is unrealistic to expect a pay award of 4.8% (Aug RPI), because prices have gone down since then - you are talking rubbish.
The Aug RPI is used as a snapshot for annual charges. The economy fluctuates. The Aug snapshot is the one we should use for pay awards because the economy will rally and prices will increase again. A one year deal is acceptable, whilst in incertain times, but you can't have your cake and eat it.
Pay awards have always been carried out this way - do not try to move the goal posts just because it suits you.
You were happy enough to accept RPI+0.25% etc 3 year deals in the past when it suited you (i.e. when you were taking money from the pension fund and traffic levels were growing rapidly) - respect you employees and treat us fairly now!
Last edited by anotherthing; 29th Dec 2008 at 11:23.
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Will NATS cut costs to help its customers? Don't be silly.
Because the pound has crashed (25%) against the euro, and because eurocontrol charges are in ... euros ... NATS has accordingly reduced its rates to the airlines.
Seemingly NATS have moved down the 'cost of providing ATC' list in Europe to number 4.
However, despite this reduction in 'costs', I am guessing that we will continue to be screwed by the CAA "RPI minus X" constraint on our income - which I am sure applies to our costs in £ sterling, and UK RPI. Generally means we are screwed whichever way .... ?
But I'm only a lowly ATCO, and not really qualified to talk about the really important money and business side of things (which after all is what NATS is about).
I'm very hopeful that there will be some thrusting NATS yukspeak expert lurking around who will be able to correct me in simple words that I might actually understand ...
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Ben Doonigan
How about: you've pretty well got it right
(Apart from the fact that, even in December, with the November exchange rate of about £1 = €1.20, UK was 6th most expensive, after Spain [mainland and Canaries], Switzerland, Belgium, Italy and Germany - at current exchange rates UK would be about 13th!)
correct me in simple words that I might actually understand
(Apart from the fact that, even in December, with the November exchange rate of about £1 = €1.20, UK was 6th most expensive, after Spain [mainland and Canaries], Switzerland, Belgium, Italy and Germany - at current exchange rates UK would be about 13th!)
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I'd never be in favour of anything less than an RPI pay increase (4.8%)...
One of the 3 reasons used during the pension briefings to convince us that a change was needed was that long-term inflation was high.
To be told that inflation has now fallen and therefore we should accept a pay freeze feels like we are expected to believe anything that we are told (although I do think that we have been somewhat guilty of that! - too many have listened and taken the information "at face value" and not bothered to check what they have been told).
One of the 3 reasons used during the pension briefings to convince us that a change was needed was that long-term inflation was high.
To be told that inflation has now fallen and therefore we should accept a pay freeze feels like we are expected to believe anything that we are told (although I do think that we have been somewhat guilty of that! - too many have listened and taken the information "at face value" and not bothered to check what they have been told).
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Well being 6th on the list would reflect a good deal for the airlines considering cost of living in the Uk is one of the highest in Europe. And the CAA want to cut these further??
Back to the pay....RPI should be the minimum the union should come back with...and yes management did propose a pay freeze.(the wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try it on) However word from a union rep was they can foxtrot oscar if they think that will be accepted, especially as members have accepted the pension changes.
Back to the pay....RPI should be the minimum the union should come back with...and yes management did propose a pay freeze.(the wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try it on) However word from a union rep was they can foxtrot oscar if they think that will be accepted, especially as members have accepted the pension changes.
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I am glad to hear that there is ,at least, some consistency with what was said in my pension briefing regarding telling management to get f***ed over any potential pay freeze. Some good news there....whether they follow through on this though is another matter.
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Me Me Me Me
I think you are about right with your post as I've just heard that a Swanwick OPS Manager has suggested that all OPS staff at Swanwick take 3 cycles unpaid leave during 2009 to help out the company by reducing salary costs during these hard times. From what I have heard he has been told where to go when he ran the suggestion past some Local Area Supervisors and quite rightly so.
This could be viewed as propaganda so that when we get offered a 0% pay rise we are grateful that we are not being laid off! Alternatively it could be viewed that this Manager has no loyalty to his staff and is only trying to please the Swanwick senior managers and STARBUCKS COMMAND! Either way it's just another stab in the back during the working together process.
I think you are about right with your post as I've just heard that a Swanwick OPS Manager has suggested that all OPS staff at Swanwick take 3 cycles unpaid leave during 2009 to help out the company by reducing salary costs during these hard times. From what I have heard he has been told where to go when he ran the suggestion past some Local Area Supervisors and quite rightly so.
This could be viewed as propaganda so that when we get offered a 0% pay rise we are grateful that we are not being laid off! Alternatively it could be viewed that this Manager has no loyalty to his staff and is only trying to please the Swanwick senior managers and STARBUCKS COMMAND! Either way it's just another stab in the back during the working together process.
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rumouroid
It might be a hint that there won't be many AAVAs offered for iFACTS proving!
It might be a hint that there won't be many AAVAs offered for iFACTS proving!
Last edited by PeltonLevel; 3rd Jan 2009 at 08:16. Reason: to give 45 before Pol a chance to read what I said!
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No. AAVA's? who they trying to kid....even with a downturn in traffic. If they don't use aava's in AC and TC during the months june-sept delays are going to be increase considerably, the place will grind a halt on some days without them. Secondly it will not get any better with ifacts as they have admitted the loss of potentially 21 cross validations during the phase in. 
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I've heard the rumour about unpaid leave at Swanwick next year as well... a friend was enquiring if part time working was available if they wanted to go down that route and the manpower manager (I forget his correct title)said "yes, in fact next year we will be asking people to take unpaid leave in the summer as we will be overstaffed"
The usual scaremongering and head up arse rubbish... especially considering that now, in the depths of winter, we are still needing lots of AAVAa to run the operation.
Not sure if it is scaremongering to enable a poor pay deal - given this person used to be a big union cheese and is still actually quite fair when it comes to that side of things, I put it down to bluster and a large dollop of naivety
Furrybeast
I don't see any whingeing in the last few posts - unless of course you think that operational staff being concerned about the Ops room being properly manned is whingein. If that's the case then I will put my hand up to being one of the biggest whingers. Maybe we should just let staffing levels be run down, it is only a safety orientated business after all.
The usual scaremongering and head up arse rubbish... especially considering that now, in the depths of winter, we are still needing lots of AAVAa to run the operation.
Not sure if it is scaremongering to enable a poor pay deal - given this person used to be a big union cheese and is still actually quite fair when it comes to that side of things, I put it down to bluster and a large dollop of naivety
Furrybeast
I don't see any whingeing in the last few posts - unless of course you think that operational staff being concerned about the Ops room being properly manned is whingein. If that's the case then I will put my hand up to being one of the biggest whingers. Maybe we should just let staffing levels be run down, it is only a safety orientated business after all.
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Voluntary unpaid leave is not necessarily a bad thing, if people want to avail of some extra time off, or a sabbatical to travel etc. But compulsory - no way.
Given the numbers of AAVA's still being called in, despite it being winter, I think its a non-starter.
Having said that, it would be typical of the sort of cobblers coming from the Swanwick Ops Managers. What a pointless waste of money they are. If you want to save a million, get rid of them, and the Safety & Training Managers, and keep a Watch Sup in each room, with a max of two Ops Managers who could work office hours.
The Ops Managers are dangerous, because with nothing real to do, they are trying to think outside the box
Given the numbers of AAVA's still being called in, despite it being winter, I think its a non-starter.
Having said that, it would be typical of the sort of cobblers coming from the Swanwick Ops Managers. What a pointless waste of money they are. If you want to save a million, get rid of them, and the Safety & Training Managers, and keep a Watch Sup in each room, with a max of two Ops Managers who could work office hours.
The Ops Managers are dangerous, because with nothing real to do, they are trying to think outside the box
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Unpaid leave in the summer? What an absolute laugh. What idiot thought that one up? The person who invented Photo of the Day no doubt. Nope, hang on, its probably the same person who said that once TC moved down to Swanwick AAVAs would be a thing of the past as we would be up to "full numbers" of operational staff. Please please please let this rumour be true...I cannot WAIT to see them get throught the summer with even less staff than last year.
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Unpaid leave sounds ideal to boost the coffers of those near the bottom of the scale. Take the leave, then come in on the AAVAs to replace yourself and end up better off. Not really worth the difference for those at or near the top of the scale.
Absolutely brilliant and completely typical management brain wave.
Perhaps as traffic has dropped off for winter we should also close the college as we're obviously overstaffed now...
Absolutely brilliant and completely typical management brain wave.
Perhaps as traffic has dropped off for winter we should also close the college as we're obviously overstaffed now...
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Like the pension before it, this is more scaremongering from absolute ****e, this time it is da management, aka 'ops managers'.
Once again, we are being painted a crazy 'worse case' scenario, so when we get faced with some piss take 1% pay offer next month, all the 'yes' lemmings will go running scared and think its better than unpaid leave.
Whats next, being asked to take a £5k pay cut as we should all feel how lucky we are that we get to talk to planes each day?
Get some balls people.
Once again, we are being painted a crazy 'worse case' scenario, so when we get faced with some piss take 1% pay offer next month, all the 'yes' lemmings will go running scared and think its better than unpaid leave.
Whats next, being asked to take a £5k pay cut as we should all feel how lucky we are that we get to talk to planes each day?
Get some balls people.
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Another statement recently made by a female senior manager at Swanwick - there is no money for a bung to get ATCOs to work extra days during iFACTS training, just standard AAVAs.
Once upon a time I remember 2xAAVA or AAVA + 2DILS being talked about for each extra attendance throughout iFACTS training, this was if you agreed in advance to attending a certain number of days.
I hope that we don't give in to just accepting an AAVA for each attendance, after all NATS is desperate to bring in iFACTS. It would be such a wasted opportunity if we don't achieve something even better than the £820 a day we got for OCT back in 2001. £820 back in 2001 is worth over £1000 today with inflation, so that should be the minimum we aim for.
Surely we can use the iFACTS training to our advantage in the pay negotiations, NATS do need our commitment to bring in iFACTS and we should make sure we expolit every opportunity to make them pay for our help.
Once upon a time I remember 2xAAVA or AAVA + 2DILS being talked about for each extra attendance throughout iFACTS training, this was if you agreed in advance to attending a certain number of days.
I hope that we don't give in to just accepting an AAVA for each attendance, after all NATS is desperate to bring in iFACTS. It would be such a wasted opportunity if we don't achieve something even better than the £820 a day we got for OCT back in 2001. £820 back in 2001 is worth over £1000 today with inflation, so that should be the minimum we aim for.
Surely we can use the iFACTS training to our advantage in the pay negotiations, NATS do need our commitment to bring in iFACTS and we should make sure we expolit every opportunity to make them pay for our help.