What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??
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Thank you for clearing that up...I just took the complete figure and converted it into £s....which still isn't bad I guess (not knowing anything about Dubai cost of living etc.).
Me me me me
Point taken re Union reps and having confidence in them. As for the pay talks I think we really need to push for at least RPI now as an absolute minimum. Bank of England expect inflation to drop to 1% next year and possibly below so if we are to get anything tangible in monetary terms out of this deal it needs to be based on the August figures for this year. Thoughts on another 3 year deal?? I say no...what does anyone else think?
The management may well turn round and say that the economic climate has changed but they'll just have to suck it up as we have had to do with the pension.
Me me me me
Point taken re Union reps and having confidence in them. As for the pay talks I think we really need to push for at least RPI now as an absolute minimum. Bank of England expect inflation to drop to 1% next year and possibly below so if we are to get anything tangible in monetary terms out of this deal it needs to be based on the August figures for this year. Thoughts on another 3 year deal?? I say no...what does anyone else think?
The management may well turn round and say that the economic climate has changed but they'll just have to suck it up as we have had to do with the pension.
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Bugger all pay rise offered.... i hate to say it, but we all told you so. As soon as that pension deal got shoe horned in we were screwed.
Are the uion going to get a spine ever?
If NATS want August RPI as the deal then they can lump it, they must be loaded by now!!!! Saying that, i'm sure prospect have already offered out the KY, paid for by our monthly subscriptions.
That union statement is the same as the pension, setting us up with a nice, soflty written, times are hard statement so when we get done over with a 2% rise (if we are lucky) they can say they 'communicated' it from the start and the final blow of a crap deal may not be so bad, hell, they probably let NATS management write the damn thing.
Come on Prospect.... please dont roll over and let us ALL down.
I want a minimum of 4.5% prospect..... now go fetch!!!
Are the uion going to get a spine ever?
If NATS want August RPI as the deal then they can lump it, they must be loaded by now!!!! Saying that, i'm sure prospect have already offered out the KY, paid for by our monthly subscriptions.
That union statement is the same as the pension, setting us up with a nice, soflty written, times are hard statement so when we get done over with a 2% rise (if we are lucky) they can say they 'communicated' it from the start and the final blow of a crap deal may not be so bad, hell, they probably let NATS management write the damn thing.
Come on Prospect.... please dont roll over and let us ALL down.
I want a minimum of 4.5% prospect..... now go fetch!!!
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So we are told that the pension scheme is in trouble and one of the three reasons given was that long term inflation is too high...
then we will be told that the company cannot afford to give a RPI matching pay rise as the current inflation is now too low...
does anyone else see the irony?????!?
P.S.
Long term inflation figure was calculated at a snapshot point in time (the last actuarial valuation) and should perhaps never have been used as a reason for needing a change to the pension scheme.
then we will be told that the company cannot afford to give a RPI matching pay rise as the current inflation is now too low...
does anyone else see the irony?????!?
P.S.
Long term inflation figure was calculated at a snapshot point in time (the last actuarial valuation) and should perhaps never have been used as a reason for needing a change to the pension scheme.
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How does everyone feel about a 3 year deal of August RPI +0.5%, underpinned at 0.5%, just in case RPI is negative anytime in the next 3 years. Starting with August 2008 RPI, so that's 5.3% in Jan 2009. I think that would be a reasonable deal that the union could honestly recommend was the best that they could achieve in these current times. I think the union have a duty and opportunity to make up some of the face that they have lost over the pension shafting, however I don't think they will ever fully recover from it.
It also gives NATS some certainty about costs going into CP3. This will enable them to negotiate with the regulator and hopefully get it right this time after the shambles of omitting full cost-pass through for our pension.
If the union manage this it's a
from me.
It also gives NATS some certainty about costs going into CP3. This will enable them to negotiate with the regulator and hopefully get it right this time after the shambles of omitting full cost-pass through for our pension.
If the union manage this it's a
from me.
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agree with rumouroid, and i think thats the least we should get given we have just bailed out mr barron to the tune of £60m-ish a year according to the pension presentations.
The last 12 months average RPI has been 4.26%, and as i've posted before, prospect seem to be negotiating about and average of 4% increases in all their other negotiations.
LOA
The last 12 months average RPI has been 4.26%, and as i've posted before, prospect seem to be negotiating about and average of 4% increases in all their other negotiations.
LOA
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It will be a one year deal... and I think that's the best option in these times - management will never cough up to a 3 year deal pinned to RPI during this very temporary financial downturn, therefore we need to barter on a yearly basis, otherwise we will get shafted in the 2nd or 3rd year of a 3 year deal when inflation rises and we have no RPI locked deal....
Mr.777
Those figure do look good, until the fact that accomodation is not included is taken into account. Furthermore, when the pound regains some of its strength, those figures will look a bit worse!
Still, if you have no debts and are young enough, it's possibly worth a doing for a few years - there is going to be a shortfall of ATCOs worldwide for many years to come yet.
Update on the KY jelly stall.
Ludmila and myself have, unfortunately(
), exhausted the stock. I am awaiting re-supply. Standby for further info.
Mr.777
Those figure do look good, until the fact that accomodation is not included is taken into account. Furthermore, when the pound regains some of its strength, those figures will look a bit worse!
Still, if you have no debts and are young enough, it's possibly worth a doing for a few years - there is going to be a shortfall of ATCOs worldwide for many years to come yet.
Update on the KY jelly stall.
Ludmila and myself have, unfortunately(
), exhausted the stock. I am awaiting re-supply. Standby for further info.
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One wonders now what would be happening now if we were French???? One thing for sure no aircraft would be transiting French airspace, but that said 2 months ago that would have been the case........you can say many things about the French but at least they have balls!!!!!!
Spink Pots
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Originally Posted by fisbangwollop
One wonders now what would be happening now if we were French???? One thing for sure no aircraft would be transiting French airspace, but that said 2 months ago that would have been the case........you can say many things about the French but at least they have balls!!!!!!
Last edited by Scuzi; 23rd Dec 2008 at 09:48.
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Well what bothers me about agreeing to the pension issue,is that Mr B will be able to do what he likes now.
Here's a new concept in NATS land.Pay cuts.There are very hard times ahead,so to keep the jobs you'll have a take a cut.Happened in Hong Kong to the ATC staff more than once.Happens outside all the time.
Will Prospect fight that prospect.Yeah right,we'll just work together and this pay cut is the best we could manage.
Here's a new concept in NATS land.Pay cuts.There are very hard times ahead,so to keep the jobs you'll have a take a cut.Happened in Hong Kong to the ATC staff more than once.Happens outside all the time.
Will Prospect fight that prospect.Yeah right,we'll just work together and this pay cut is the best we could manage.
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First, I've handed back sectors above MUR, I've handed back my LCE, I am considering giving up OJTI. I have sent a letter to Prospect resigning from the union. I cannot believe that with a properly conducted NO campaign by those I pay to represent my interests that a further 135 people would not have sucumbed to scare stories spread by management and latter day union Haw Haws. Those 135 votes would have returned a NO majority for the ATCO branch. Before the brown nosers ask, I would then be prepared to fight and keep on fighting, and stay on strike until my terms and conditions were restored.
We as a workforce deserve everything that's coming. First will be a payfreeze. Redundancies on the new reduced redundancy terms are on the way. The MACC move has problems still to be overcome, don't expect management to budge - we've shown our strength already.
Get used to seeing terms and conditions eroded. We've shown them we're more than happy to accept it. I will never slag off the French again, we've shown just exactly how little we're prepared to defend our interests.
At least I won't be paying Prospect a penny to collude with management.
Merry F*cking Christmas.
We as a workforce deserve everything that's coming. First will be a payfreeze. Redundancies on the new reduced redundancy terms are on the way. The MACC move has problems still to be overcome, don't expect management to budge - we've shown our strength already.
Get used to seeing terms and conditions eroded. We've shown them we're more than happy to accept it. I will never slag off the French again, we've shown just exactly how little we're prepared to defend our interests.
At least I won't be paying Prospect a penny to collude with management.
Merry F*cking Christmas.
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Does French fighting spirit work?
Anyone know whether French controllers have won better conditions, pay, and pensions than NATS?
I thought that the NATS pension offer wouldn't have been as good without the union negotiations. I'd join tomorrow, if I wasn't already a member.
I thought that the NATS pension offer wouldn't have been as good without the union negotiations. I'd join tomorrow, if I wasn't already a member.
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Infiniti80 - How is it that by leaving the union you are in any better position? You now have no voice, as there are no ballots or representation for non-members. Giving up sectors, LCE, etc could be seen by NATS as unnofficial industrial action and leave you severely exposed, even more so now as you've left the union! 
There isn't another union to go to that is recognised.......
There isn't another union to go to that is recognised.......
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Management would not be doing their job properly if they didn't force through a pay deal as close as possible to 'zero'.
They know that atco's quickly folded on the pension issue with the just a little scaremongering so why would they think the same staff would have any stomach for a fight over pay?
'Take 0% or you'll be threatening the future of the company and with it our jobs and pensions.'
Management should be congratulated on the way they've handled the unions and staff over the last few months, they've done a brilliant job.
They know that atco's quickly folded on the pension issue with the just a little scaremongering so why would they think the same staff would have any stomach for a fight over pay?
'Take 0% or you'll be threatening the future of the company and with it our jobs and pensions.'
Management should be congratulated on the way they've handled the unions and staff over the last few months, they've done a brilliant job.
Yes the RB & his team must be havin one hell of a Christmas party this year congratulating themselves on total control of the unions & workforce. Well done, maybe another New Years honour next year I should think.
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'Take 0% or you'll be threatening the future of the company and with it our jobs and pensions.'
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I know what I hope the union will do, that is get some backbone and tell management to get lost. However, having already shown their true colours during the pension proposal, I think they will recommend we accept it. We have now lost all credibility when it comes to bargaining power.
By voting Yes to the pension proposal we have invited the fox into the chicken coup and it will now begin its feast.
By voting Yes to the pension proposal we have invited the fox into the chicken coup and it will now begin its feast.
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eglnyt
Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?
Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?
I'm on managements side (seriously).
It would be selfish of staff to demand any sort of pay rise that would risk future jobs and pensions. Not to mention hypocritical as the majority have already accepted the argument.
A minimum of a 3 year pay freeze all round!!!
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Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?
However in the spirit of workng together, the union and management should sit down before any such decision is made and see if staffing numbers are realistic to carry out the tasks at a level they are currently being done.
I think they will find a few surplus staff around the bazaars that could be gotten rid of without any ill effect on the company. I include ATCOs in this statement as there are many who are doing an office job which could be fulfilled by a non ATCO at half the salary, thus allwoing the ATCO to return to the OPS environment.
There are other ATCOs around who have played the system for too long... doing made up jobs because they have been unable to validate after moving units at their own request. The company need to get some balls and bin these wasters.
This may sound harsh, but why should I take a lower pay award to keep someone in employment when they are wrongfully employed, under utilised?
Then they can talk about pay freezes etc as a cost saving.
A poor pay award is an easy and extremely lazy option. Cost saving is very laudable, but the phrase sticks in the throat when all around us we see money wasted.
I think the majority of people in this company would be a lot happier to accept little or no pay rise if they believed the company was not so wasteful.
We're in a recession but wandering round Swanwick on a night shift you see countless offices with lights left on and computers running for no reason (the NATS Corporate Security office springs to mind - unmanned yet lights blazing... I'd have though of all offices they would have been the most switched on at switching off).
We can't even sort that out, so what hope do we have of reducing wasteage elsewhere?
Also, flights overall may be down, but transatlantic flights (NATS biggest money spinner) are not.
Couple that with payment in Euros at a time when the pound is weak and I think you will be surprised at how relatively well NATS performs this quarter.
However, we will of course be subject to the usual scaremongering tactics, which the Union has already acknowledged.
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alfie 1999
Call me selfish, I want a pay rise!
anotherthing
Couldn't agree with you more, sack the wasters that don't bring home the bacon, that includes some senior managers. A junior management grade of Safety and Training Manager can also go as they are complete waste of time, the position has been made up to give someone a job that otherwise would be surplus to requirements.
It would also help if NATS stopped throwing money at wasteful projects such as iFACTS, £130 million spent so far. It was supposed to be a product that NATS could sell and make a profit from as well as increase capacity and safety. NATS have to take their head out their butt and realise that no other ANSP will want to buy it as there are many other countries with similiar systems in development that will be operational before iFACTS.
Call me selfish, I want a pay rise!
anotherthing
Couldn't agree with you more, sack the wasters that don't bring home the bacon, that includes some senior managers. A junior management grade of Safety and Training Manager can also go as they are complete waste of time, the position has been made up to give someone a job that otherwise would be surplus to requirements.
It would also help if NATS stopped throwing money at wasteful projects such as iFACTS, £130 million spent so far. It was supposed to be a product that NATS could sell and make a profit from as well as increase capacity and safety. NATS have to take their head out their butt and realise that no other ANSP will want to buy it as there are many other countries with similiar systems in development that will be operational before iFACTS.