What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??
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What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??
The NATS Pension thread has been one of the most subscribed-to threads in ATC issues, but is now dying a natural death.
Putting aside cries of 'Vote Yes' or 'Vote No', what do you think is in store for NATS in the near future? Below are my predictions, starting with my predicted vote result...
Prediction 1.
'The Vote'
62% Yes
38% No
Prediction 2.
Swiftly followed by a complete shafting on the annual pay award (I reckon 3% - which would be less than RPI)...
Prediction 3.
3-5% overall reduction in NATS staff by Jul 09.
Prediction 4.
Departure of Mr Barron within 18 months of changing the pension scheme.
Prediction 5.
Break up and shelving of some NSL contracts within 60 months of pension scheme change.
You heard it here first...
Putting aside cries of 'Vote Yes' or 'Vote No', what do you think is in store for NATS in the near future? Below are my predictions, starting with my predicted vote result...
Prediction 1.
'The Vote'
62% Yes
38% No
Prediction 2.
Swiftly followed by a complete shafting on the annual pay award (I reckon 3% - which would be less than RPI)...
Prediction 3.
3-5% overall reduction in NATS staff by Jul 09.
Prediction 4.
Departure of Mr Barron within 18 months of changing the pension scheme.
Prediction 5.
Break up and shelving of some NSL contracts within 60 months of pension scheme change.
You heard it here first...
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Firstly, good idea to start a new thread...the other was getting a bit stagnant, there's only so many times you can say "Vote No/Yes" !
I agree with nearly all your predictions, although I think that the pension vote will be more like 55/45, no idea which way its going to swing.
Also, I think if we get a payrise of 1.5% ( a flat 1.5%, not RPI + 1.5%), then we'll be doing "well", particularly as several members of management have mooted a pay freeze and the Union aren't exactly refuting this.
I'd like to know timescales involved if it turns into a "NO" vote...
I agree with nearly all your predictions, although I think that the pension vote will be more like 55/45, no idea which way its going to swing.
Also, I think if we get a payrise of 1.5% ( a flat 1.5%, not RPI + 1.5%), then we'll be doing "well", particularly as several members of management have mooted a pay freeze and the Union aren't exactly refuting this.
I'd like to know timescales involved if it turns into a "NO" vote...
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Anotherthing - Don't forget there are 3 ballots going on, we could have a situation with a 62/38 Yes vote, but the proposal still fails.
In fact, if every one just votes randomly for Yes or No, there is only a 1 in 8 chance of passing the proposal.
My prediction would be 55/45 No vote, but i'm sure at least one of the ballots will produce a No vote (probably the ATCO branch).
In fact, if every one just votes randomly for Yes or No, there is only a 1 in 8 chance of passing the proposal.
My prediction would be 55/45 No vote, but i'm sure at least one of the ballots will produce a No vote (probably the ATCO branch).
Last edited by AFFLECK; 9th Dec 2008 at 11:24.
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Dee Mac wrote:
This is a rumours site after all so I'd like to throw this in for all the non ATCOs here who will believe any possible management guff thats states job losses are due (in part or wholly) to ATCOs not accepting the proposals.
There is a very strong rumour, that at this point in time, regardless of the outcome of the proposals, there is an exercise taking place within NATS to see where savings through job cuts can be achieved.
Any job cuts that may or may not happen are totally seperate from the pensions issue.
Affleck
I understand the mechanics of the ballot, I stand by my predictions. That number is stated will be the overall vote, as for how it breaks down into the different groups, I am not sure. I think the ATCO vote will be very close either way, the other 2 will be a solid 'NO'
Any cuts in jobs etc after that will be blamed on ATCOs due to their refusal to accept the proposals on offer.
There is a very strong rumour, that at this point in time, regardless of the outcome of the proposals, there is an exercise taking place within NATS to see where savings through job cuts can be achieved.
Any job cuts that may or may not happen are totally seperate from the pensions issue.
Affleck
I understand the mechanics of the ballot, I stand by my predictions. That number is stated will be the overall vote, as for how it breaks down into the different groups, I am not sure. I think the ATCO vote will be very close either way, the other 2 will be a solid 'NO'
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Dee Mac,
I don't think management can in all reality put other groups on the new arrangements and keep the ATCOs on the current. The proposal is for all NATS employees, so no matter how invincible you think you are if you wear a headset, it goes through for all or it goes through for none.
IMHO, if the ATCO branch of prospect tries to do its own thing, then don't expect to see support forthcoming ever again from ATSS or PCS colleagues next time management try to chip away at your ATCO related Ts & Cs.
Anothering - predictions look about right, although I reckon the overall vote will be much closer. With regard to prediction 3, I reckon that's very likely - the bar stool session yesterday at CTC covered downturn and NATS "coping with the loss of renevue" until things pick up again - losing staff is probably one of the most likely ways and I think was infered to in the Q & A session at the end.
Best keep my Starbucks breaks to a minimum, make sure some of the other dross at CTC gets canned
Just wondering how the other two will be a solid "No" with ATCO branch being close, yet still end up with a 62/38 yes/no split, unless ATCO branch numbers are hugely dominant? Ears on the ground in ATSS branch suggests majority yes.
RS
I don't think management can in all reality put other groups on the new arrangements and keep the ATCOs on the current. The proposal is for all NATS employees, so no matter how invincible you think you are if you wear a headset, it goes through for all or it goes through for none.
IMHO, if the ATCO branch of prospect tries to do its own thing, then don't expect to see support forthcoming ever again from ATSS or PCS colleagues next time management try to chip away at your ATCO related Ts & Cs.
Anothering - predictions look about right, although I reckon the overall vote will be much closer. With regard to prediction 3, I reckon that's very likely - the bar stool session yesterday at CTC covered downturn and NATS "coping with the loss of renevue" until things pick up again - losing staff is probably one of the most likely ways and I think was infered to in the Q & A session at the end.
Best keep my Starbucks breaks to a minimum, make sure some of the other dross at CTC gets canned
Just wondering how the other two will be a solid "No" with ATCO branch being close, yet still end up with a 62/38 yes/no split, unless ATCO branch numbers are hugely dominant? Ears on the ground in ATSS branch suggests majority yes.
RS
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Best keep my Starbucks breaks to a minimum, make sure some of the other dross at CTC gets canned
I agree that there's no way that they'll have the ATCOs on a separate scheme and everybody else on the SMART one...alhough they'd probably quite like that...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary and any way they can promote a division between us and you is only going to benefit them in the long run.
Interesting you mention job losses. As much as I don't want ANYBODY to lose their job, I can't believe the penny has only just dropped with regards to this. This must surely have been coming for a while, or perhaps its only people below management pay grade that have ANY idea what's going on.
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1. Barron in.
2. Lots of people recruited to do noddy jobs on pay well below ATCOs et al.
3. Pensions vote.
4. Noddies vote 'yes'.
5 The Downturn.
6. Noddies made redundant.
7. ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs shafted.
8. Barron out.
=RESULT
2. Lots of people recruited to do noddy jobs on pay well below ATCOs et al.
3. Pensions vote.
4. Noddies vote 'yes'.
5 The Downturn.
6. Noddies made redundant.
7. ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs shafted.
8. Barron out.
=RESULT
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If the vote is yes, I predict NSL will be sold off and our Pension will be reduced to 50% final salary scheme, as opposed to the 66% which it is now.
If the vote is NO, I predict NATS management will come back with another offer, perhaps cap at RPI + 1%, then NSL may be sold off. Any attempt to reduce to 50% will be met with strike action
VN
( for the benefit of RS )
If the vote is NO, I predict NATS management will come back with another offer, perhaps cap at RPI + 1%, then NSL may be sold off. Any attempt to reduce to 50% will be met with strike action
VN
( for the benefit of RS )
Last edited by Vote NO; 9th Dec 2008 at 21:03.
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Vote No,
With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.
Putting VOTE NO in really big letters is IMHO voting propaganda I'd prefer left in the pension forum.
Then again, this is PPRUNE and everyone has a right to post what they like.......I'll go back to my latte.
RS
With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.
Putting VOTE NO in really big letters is IMHO voting propaganda I'd prefer left in the pension forum.
Then again, this is PPRUNE and everyone has a right to post what they like.......I'll go back to my latte.
RS
Last edited by Radarspod; 9th Dec 2008 at 20:40. Reason: having re-read the posts, changed my mind a bit
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...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary
Happy to be enlightened,
RS
Last edited by Radarspod; 9th Dec 2008 at 20:37. Reason: typos and stuff
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Radarspod
Glad you have moved on
Firstly ,what has
got to do with this thread?
Secondly
If you use a little of your limited imagination you will realise I have not used any "vote no" propaganda.
I merely used my forum "name" after my prediction!
Unless of course I can't comment on here because of my forum name
If it will help, I will abbreviate my name as you have done.
VN
point taken I hope ?
Vote No,
With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.
Would you mind keeping your "vote no" propaganda in the pension thread, a number of us have voted and moved on.
RS
With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.
Would you mind keeping your "vote no" propaganda in the pension thread, a number of us have voted and moved on.
RS
Firstly ,what has
Quote:
...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary
I haven't actually heard that before (although someone probably mentioned in one of the 1800+ posts in the pension forum). Where has that come from? I assume that it's because he can't really make changes or reduce numbers that easily to meet profit targets, etc., and ATCOs cost so much to be trained.
Happy to be enlightened,
RS
...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary
I haven't actually heard that before (although someone probably mentioned in one of the 1800+ posts in the pension forum). Where has that come from? I assume that it's because he can't really make changes or reduce numbers that easily to meet profit targets, etc., and ATCOs cost so much to be trained.
Happy to be enlightened,
RS
Secondly
If you use a little of your limited imagination you will realise I have not used any "vote no" propaganda.
I merely used my forum "name" after my prediction!
Unless of course I can't comment on here because of my forum name
If it will help, I will abbreviate my name as you have done.
VN
point taken I hope ?
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Annoyingly, yes
Although I would still like to know the answer to my last question, even if it is thread creep - after all, we don't have a "Baron ATCO hating" thread running to ask it in.
Although I would still like to know the answer to my last question, even if it is thread creep - after all, we don't have a "Baron ATCO hating" thread running to ask it in.
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If the vote is YES, then Barron can go to the next board meeting and be congratulated.
If the vote is NO, then Barron can go to the next board meeting and ask for guidance. I can't see that the Airline Group will accept the role of enthusiastic lobbyists for pass-through of a more expensive pension scheme, but those of you who are closer to these things (i.e. further away from Starbucks) may have evidence to the contrary.
If the vote is NO, then Barron can go to the next board meeting and ask for guidance. I can't see that the Airline Group will accept the role of enthusiastic lobbyists for pass-through of a more expensive pension scheme, but those of you who are closer to these things (i.e. further away from Starbucks) may have evidence to the contrary.
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So this time staying on thread ...
FYI, the question was asked again yesterday at the CTC bar stool session about what happens in a NO vote - Mr B stated he didn't know and nor did the NTUS - should be interesting what happens next.
Question for debate - ignore PCS for a moment - what does Prospect as a union do if (a plausible scenario) the ATCO branch is NO and ATSS branch is YES. What does this mean for next step? If it comes to industrial action road does Prospect decide as a union the action for all NATS members regardless of branch - surely that would be in internal conflict of interest? Never got involved with union stuff in depth to know the answer - anyone care to suggest?
RS
...FYI, the question was asked again yesterday at the CTC bar stool session about what happens in a NO vote - Mr B stated he didn't know and nor did the NTUS - should be interesting what happens next.
Question for debate - ignore PCS for a moment - what does Prospect as a union do if (a plausible scenario) the ATCO branch is NO and ATSS branch is YES. What does this mean for next step? If it comes to industrial action road does Prospect decide as a union the action for all NATS members regardless of branch - surely that would be in internal conflict of interest? Never got involved with union stuff in depth to know the answer - anyone care to suggest?
RS
Last edited by Radarspod; 9th Dec 2008 at 21:26. Reason: Look, I edited my post first before your witty reply OK - I know it was in big letters and you were signing off your post!! Happy New Year VN :)
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my plausible solution... If ATSS vote yes, then the whole thing might only need a tweak, perhaps RPI +1% pensionable (or max payrise will be RPI +1%), limit cap to 10 years, improve the protection for those employees post PPP and write in 'if we wish to sell NSL off during the 10 / 15 years, you will all get a large bung'.
That to me doesnt seem like a too big a step...
LOA
ps they could sort out banding too!!!
That to me doesnt seem like a too big a step...
LOA
ps they could sort out banding too!!!
Well, the weak knee ATCOs could get up of their bums, stop pontificating on Pprune & do something.
I can't remember in over 35 years when they have ever stood up to Management. Meanwhile the French ATCOs strike almost every Easter, the Spaniards have their share & the Greek ATCOs are on the verge of a walk out now.
It's very sad, but these days if you really want to keep something you have to stand up & fight for it.
If you want a zero pay rise, a shafted pension , & poorer conditions then just carry on as you are now. The RB has very successfully managed the unions expectations, they now expect nowt-so won't be disappointed.
I can't remember in over 35 years when they have ever stood up to Management. Meanwhile the French ATCOs strike almost every Easter, the Spaniards have their share & the Greek ATCOs are on the verge of a walk out now.
It's very sad, but these days if you really want to keep something you have to stand up & fight for it.
If you want a zero pay rise, a shafted pension , & poorer conditions then just carry on as you are now. The RB has very successfully managed the unions expectations, they now expect nowt-so won't be disappointed.
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Agree A Tis 100%. And my point re Barron's attitude towards ATCOs is that it is well known that he would love to get rid of each and every one of us as we cost the company so much money....one slight problem, as much as he would like to think otherwise, NATS is still in the business of providing ATC.