something going on?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
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System now fully electronic again, normal flow rates applied.
Company says "Evening staffing levels have been adjusted to provide additional capacity throughout the evening"
i.e. Staff are being given time in lieu and AAVAs to stay beyound their normal shift end.
VL
Company says "Evening staffing levels have been adjusted to provide additional capacity throughout the evening"
i.e. Staff are being given time in lieu and AAVAs to stay beyound their normal shift end.
VL
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 324
Likes: 1
From: Hindhead, UK
Supposed to be going to Munich this afternoon. The CTOT got to 2340z for a 1630z departure. Start-up delays about 90min at LHR. Glad to be sent home.
They are trying to preserve the nightstopping and longhaul services, but did some pax being directed straight from departures to arrivals to be re-flighted in the transfers area.
They are trying to preserve the nightstopping and longhaul services, but did some pax being directed straight from departures to arrivals to be re-flighted in the transfers area.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 613
Likes: 0
From: england
I know little about the UK's ATC systems. However, occasionally (no more than once a year) we see a system failure that means the chaps have to revert to a manual mode. If we look ahead to the two centres (Swanwick & Prestwick) working on the same platforms, surely it would be worthwhile having two separately procured sets of software working in parallel (something akin to the airliner separately developed engine control programs)?
No criticisms, just a bit of sat-at-home-slippers-on thinking.
No criticisms, just a bit of sat-at-home-slippers-on thinking.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: South Coast, UK
I had one lined up, was just about to clear him when the call came through.
The assistant I spoke to said it was a code/callsign conversion failure.
I really hope that NATS didn't impose a 50% flowrate because they couldn't cope with 4233 on the screens instead of BAWxxxx.
But in the absence of any other information its the best we have to go on.
The assistant I spoke to said it was a code/callsign conversion failure.
I really hope that NATS didn't impose a 50% flowrate because they couldn't cope with 4233 on the screens instead of BAWxxxx.
But in the absence of any other information its the best we have to go on.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 10
From: France
Fail active, dual fail passive, automatic changeover, RAID, real-time back-up....
Ah where did all those notions go?
All anathema to the bean-counters I suppose.
CJ
Ah where did all those notions go?
All anathema to the bean-counters I suppose.
CJ
Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 25th September 2008 at 20:06. Reason: typo
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: uk
Calm down, Calm down, Mr Grubby, I'm only suggesting that - "It's a funny old World innit!".
Those "still in the loop" are no doubt still working at 110% to ensure that the Company pull through this latest hiccup, irrespective of the impending drastic cut to their terms of employment.
(You shouldn't be so touchy you know )
Those "still in the loop" are no doubt still working at 110% to ensure that the Company pull through this latest hiccup, irrespective of the impending drastic cut to their terms of employment.
(You shouldn't be so touchy you know )
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Earth
I don't know what caused it as I wasn't in today, but it sounds like a poisoned flight plan issue. We've had them before and I know a lot of work was done to remove the logic that can cause it, but they can be VERY difficult to diagnose on the spot.
Due to some of the data flows and synchronisation issues there is a very limited amount of time to restore full electronic co-ordination before we are forced in to a manual mode of operation.
Once this time has been passed then unfortunately the traffic volumes have to be driven down to the point where manual and electronic systems can be synchronised again.
I'm guessing the delay in recovery was partly due to the fact they wanted some assurance that when they lifted the restrictions the thing wouldn't fail again...
..as I say - I've not been there today so this is a bit of guess work on my part
Due to some of the data flows and synchronisation issues there is a very limited amount of time to restore full electronic co-ordination before we are forced in to a manual mode of operation.
Once this time has been passed then unfortunately the traffic volumes have to be driven down to the point where manual and electronic systems can be synchronised again.
I'm guessing the delay in recovery was partly due to the fact they wanted some assurance that when they lifted the restrictions the thing wouldn't fail again...
..as I say - I've not been there today so this is a bit of guess work on my part
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
cb9002
If you'd ever worked:
a) 'raw' SSR data i.e. no code/callsign conversion, with the associated increase in head-up/head-down time to your strips, and
b) the volume of traffic in the LTMA and airways,
then you'd realise that it's actually a very big deal indeed!
I also wasn't there so can't confirm if it was a CCC issue or not.
If you'd ever worked:
a) 'raw' SSR data i.e. no code/callsign conversion, with the associated increase in head-up/head-down time to your strips, and
b) the volume of traffic in the LTMA and airways,
then you'd realise that it's actually a very big deal indeed!
I also wasn't there so can't confirm if it was a CCC issue or not.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Thanks goodness they still have ATSAs to help out on the wings
Gawd help us when iFACTS arrives and the ATSAs are at the job centre!
Gawd help us when iFACTS arrives and the ATSAs are at the job centre!
More than just an ATCO
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,773
Likes: 1
From: Up someone's nose
poor old ATCOs will just have to feed the 50p's into the meter themselves!
and from the original post
a fault in one of the systems that feeds the controller
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
Saved again by the good old fashioned paper strips and salt-of-the-earth assistants who retain a lot of the old manual skills. Not a lot goes wrong with a piece of paper.
I'd love to see the safety case for the new system that will be bolted on to the creaking patchwork mess of the current computer; which has to have down time at least once a week as a poster has already highlighted.
Draconian safety restrictions were lifted [at least on my sector group] as soon as we could accommodate extra traffic safely.....in fact we sought out traffic and got them in the air as quickly as we could using any route and level with capacity available.......London terminal and Manchester were superb in the finest traditions of what is left of the old National Air Traffic Service [pre-nats] tradition.
I'd love to see the safety case for the new system that will be bolted on to the creaking patchwork mess of the current computer; which has to have down time at least once a week as a poster has already highlighted.
Draconian safety restrictions were lifted [at least on my sector group] as soon as we could accommodate extra traffic safely.....in fact we sought out traffic and got them in the air as quickly as we could using any route and level with capacity available.......London terminal and Manchester were superb in the finest traditions of what is left of the old National Air Traffic Service [pre-nats] tradition.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Hampshire
Having been at the thick end of it yesterday in TC I can say that everyone worked their socks off to maintain a flow of traffic. ATSA's were brilliant as usual when it hits the fan (which is thankfully not often)
Was nice to have someone from Dav coming through to give a big
to the Mids guys once it had all calmed down. Surprised they knew how to get to the TC Ops room 
....
Spamcan
Was nice to have someone from Dav coming through to give a big
to the Mids guys once it had all calmed down. Surprised they knew how to get to the TC Ops room ....Spamcan
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: on base
One thing I dont understand, the NATS statement said something about 24,500 feet. Surely with the lowering of the DFL that should be 19500. Or do the civil sectors still have the lower / upper boundary at FL240?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
From: Hants, UK
QUOTE
Thanks goodness they still have ATSAs to help out on the wings
Gawd help us when iFACTS arrives and the ATSAs are at the job centre!
UNQUOTE
From what I hear, if an ATSA hadn't been 'interfacing' with the system and done an amendment incorrectly, the system wouldn't have fallen over in the first place!
Well done everyone for keeping it safe and delays to a minimum in difficult circumstances.
Thanks goodness they still have ATSAs to help out on the wings
Gawd help us when iFACTS arrives and the ATSAs are at the job centre!
UNQUOTE
From what I hear, if an ATSA hadn't been 'interfacing' with the system and done an amendment incorrectly, the system wouldn't have fallen over in the first place!
Well done everyone for keeping it safe and delays to a minimum in difficult circumstances.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: UK
Not so simple.
Fail active, dual fail passive, automatic changeover, RAID, real-time back-up....
Ah where did all those notions go?
Ah where did all those notions go?
Someone suggested having two separately developed ATM systems. That would cost considerably more than twice as much because they would have to synchronise precisely despite working differently. Experiments with independently developed software suggests that independent teams tend to make similar mistakes. In this case they would have to be working to a very detailed specification, which itself would be error prone. In short, its not that simple.
Even if it worked, it would make no financial sense to NATS given the current level of penalties for delay. In fact it probably wouldn't even make financial sense to the aviation industry as a whole; having a few planes delayed every year or so would actually work out cheaper.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: North of the Watford Gap
From what I hear, if an ATSA hadn't been 'interfacing' with the system and done an amendment incorrectly, the system wouldn't have fallen over in the first place!
