Ivor_Novello

Isn't it a bit cheeky that on the careees website NATS are trying to attract new traines with "an attractive remuneration package which includes a contributory final salary pension scheme, generous annual leave, a variety of voluntary benefits and family friendly policies"

NATS careers

I sincerely doubt that those about go through the recruitment process will start with NATS before March 2009.

With an already highly UNattractive trainee salary, and now a new UNattractive pension scheme, how long will people continue to be interested in taking a career change and decide to come and work for NATS ?

Ivor

alfie1999

eglnyt


I'm sorry but I can't see an answer to my question about your statement that...


"...the Regulator only allows NATS to make a profit in order to fund the investment program."


Is your statement factually correct or not? Just a 'yes' or 'no' will do, thanks.

Vote NO

ImnotanERIC

25/1 You must be an ERIC

Vote NO

GuruCube

Do you have evidence in a legally binding document that NSL will not be sold off ? Ok, I guess you don't, that's why we speculate.
It's a question of common sense and NATS management won't rule it in, or rule it out. Which usually means they will sell NSL as soon as practically possible

BAND4ALL

Maybe not NSL as a whole but just you watch parts of it drop off at a rapid rate post a new pension scheme

Airways B

One important fact possibly not covered on here which potentially blows NATS' figures out of the water is this...

NATS is paid largely in Euro's by airlines. Over the course of the last 12 months (maybe less) The euro has gained in strengh by nearly 30% and there is no prospect of it recovering in the near future.

NATS' staff are paid in Sterling.

The result of this is that NATS' staff costs in real terms have reduced by 30% over the last year!

We don't see this in any 'we're in deep cak arguments' do we?

eglnyt

Like any attempt to summarise a very complex subject on a web forum it's both factually correct and factually incorrect and also like any complex subject there is no yes or no answer. As I've tried to explain the Regulator has allowed pass through of the capital investment programme so it has allowed NATS to make a large part of the profit to fund the agreed investment programme. If it won't allow NATS to include all the pension payments in the charging regime it isn't going to allow NATS to redirect the investment money to pay the pension payments either. I'm sure it would be quite happy for NATS to use any part of the profit not already earmarked for investment to pay pensions but that's a very small part and if you think it's enough to pay the sort of sums we're talking about you are going to be very disappointed.

eglnyt

Have they ? The clue is on page 31 of the Annual report. There will be some gain from the drop of the pound against the Euro but nowhere near as much as you think. Remember also that a lot of our capital expenditure at the moment is with companies in the euro zone.

Radarspod

Ivor Novello - NATS isn't all about ATCOs!! (even though you'd think it was on this forum ). The engineering schemes (EngTechs, DEG, etc) are pretty competitive and while WE don't like it because we have a very good Defined Benefits scheme, I did a quick poll of some friends and family when all this started about the new Defined Contribution scheme and nobody is aware of anything better in the marketplace. I couldn't find one person who could come anywhere near to the 2:1 ratio capped at 18% company contribution that NATS is putting forward. It definitely is NOT a UNattractive pension scheme - just LESS attractive than the current one.

RS

Vote NO

Watch Bremner Bird and Fortune on CH4+1 (channel 13 digital freeview) at 2000 tonight , hilarous but sadly all too familiar Pension woes

For those who missed it (Sun 16th)

Catch Up

Del Prado

But staff costs are by far the biggest expenditure NATS has.

Any 'capital expenditure with companies in the eurozone' are tiny in comparison.

PeltonLevel

Airways B
Unfortunately, as a visit to the CRCO web site will show you, the NATS charge rate is recalculated every month based on the Sterling/Euro rate at the start of that month. The effects of the fall in the value of the pound are therefore of marginal , if any, value to the company.
EUROCONTROL - Unit Rates & Tariffs

Keeping to the charge cap (RPI-x%) has been relatively easy when traffic growth has been so high, even with above RPI increases to the payroll. With the decline in the 2008 traffic figures, it now looks like it might be more difficult to make a profit within the cap for this year.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/crco/public/standard_page/su_forecast_main.html

The capital programme is actually quite significant (over £100 million per year) and a high proportion is spent in Norway and the Eurozone. Contracts already let will probably have some protection against a decline in Sterling but future projects might be more problematic. Can we keep NAS going for another decade until we can afford a replacement?

And finally, some good news: Fareham is in the top ten areas for life expectancy.

alfie1999

eglnyt


It's unfortunate that you make a very direct statement in an effort to support your management position of wanting a 'yes' vote but when asked for a straight answer you obfuscate.

Never mind, I watch pmq's regularly so i'm quite used to it.





Such as...

£20.9m spent on exceptional redundancy and relocation costs
£15.8m early repayment charge on the shareholder loan notes
£65m shareholder loan notes themselves
£5.5m expected savings from above repayment in 2009


So that's over £100m.

CAP493

Well said! At last someone is actually using their brains and wising-up to economic reality instead of letting their guts and emotion speak. As for NSL being sold off, maybe - but it's not that attractive given its overheads; and don't forget, it'll only take the stroke of a politician's pen to open up NERL to any SESAR-approved ANSP to buy into, or even buy out, HMG's 49% shareholding. And if that happens, whilst TUPE will protect staff salaries, pension arrangements and other T&Cs are not covered by the UK or European legislation, so the consequences to the NATS Section of CAAPS could ultimately be even worse for the existing members.

mr.777

What econonmic reality is that then??? The reality that I stand to be up to £10k out of pocket by the time I retire?? It may be a better scheme than other companies have, I couldn't really give a monkeys, £10k is STILL £10k FFS!! And thats per year. And all this while NATS has been spunking money left, right and centre on pointless initiatives and award ceremonies..."Well done, you spent all day looking at photo of the day and drinking Tazo Chai Latte...have a free evening on the company all expenses paid". THAT is the reality of life in NATS.

Me Me Me Me

I'm a NO voter... but this is absolute trash

You don't stand to lose out on £10k a year. I don't think we should accept the changes, but statements like that are just as bad, if not worse, than the crap we're being fed about this being our only hope. You'd stand to be £10k per year worse off if we received salary increases of at least RPI+1.5% every year from now till your retirement.

That just is not going to happen I'm afraid. What I've heard recently is that flat RPI is the best we can hope for short term. If the rumoured deflation occurs then a complete pay freeze will be likely (still and increase in real terms).

As for the childish rubbish aimed at non Ops staff... YAWN

Vote NO though... This is not the best deal possible.

Stupendous Man

But RPI+1.5% is the figure that NATS and the actuaries use to forcast the cost of the fund. Its THEIR figure. So if we're not going to get these pay rises why don't NATS readjust their forecast costs?

BTW we have had on average 2.5% in the last 10 years. There is plenty that NATS will have to get us to agree to in the years to come and do you think that over 15 years we won't get above rpi+0.5%? Even once and we're worse off.

055166k

Panic setting in as extra brainwashing sessions hastily arranged for the unwashed. Promises of time to permit questions before they run for the door. The best presentation so far was on Bremner Bird & Fortune....catch it if you can.
Let's see......£15.30 pm at 5% over 25 years = £9111.30p.....Oh...hang on...let's call it £21pm before tax at 5% over 25 years=£12505.70p
[average of a raft of rates available this morning]
To be serious for a moment; there can be no credible argument in the absence of a real and visible management austerity programme. We need to return to the core task of ATS provider, and cut away the rest.

mr.777

Thank you Stupendous Man. Me Me Me,the figures I used in the calculator were RPI +1.5% and guess what...£10k per year worse off. So kindly explain how that is crap please. And actually, I wasn't having a go at non-ops staff, in fact I was very careful not to mention anything about CTC...what I was objecting too was the frivolous waste of money by NATS management. As for your pious, holier than thou attitude....YAWN.

Me Me Me Me

You might as well say "OH MY GOD, I'LL BE £100,000 A YEAR WORSE OFF!! based on assumption of an RPI + 30% pay rise each year

Global financial conditions aside, the introduction of the RPI+0.5% cap will lead directly to a situation where all future pay deals are based on not exceeding that amount. Anything extra is more likely to be dished out as one-off bungs in return for effiencies/cost-cutting/headcount reduction.

So, as much as I'm against accepting the deal... the figures people are coming out with after using the modeller are unrealistic to say the least. That is not to say either that the mere introduction of a cap isn't a negative move. It is... and I don't like it.