NATS Pensions (Split from Pay 2009 thread)
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As a non-ATCO, I'm happy to exchange that for getting shot of the pensionable pay cap...where do I sign? 
Last edited by Radarspod; 19th Dec 2008 at 21:42. Reason: attempting to lighten the mood
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I would hazard a guess that a large proportion of those that did not vote were in their mid 50s and, rightly or wrongly, decided that the proposals would have little or no effect on their retirement. You could argue that they were right to abstain from a proposal that will not effect them.
The Union has been less than honest with us during the briefings. At the briefing I attended they gave a list assurances that would be included in the MoU, giving the impression it was just a matter crossing the ts and signing; yet in their correspondence today it all seems a lot less certain and appears to need a significant amount of consultation. However, I still think a yes vote was the right one.
The Union has been less than honest with us during the briefings. At the briefing I attended they gave a list assurances that would be included in the MoU, giving the impression it was just a matter crossing the ts and signing; yet in their correspondence today it all seems a lot less certain and appears to need a significant amount of consultation. However, I still think a yes vote was the right one.
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Ok, let me re-phrase.....would someone who had decided to abstain from voting, for whatever reason, really return a spoiled paper, or would s/he merely not bother to return it?
I don't think I would bother to open the envelope, if I were in that position.
Anyway, my point was that, just as one should not condemn all those who undertake overtime/VAPs/AAVAs as being greedy, one should not condemn those who did not return a vote as 'couldn't be arsed' or 'didn't think it was sufficiently important enough' or 'lazy'.
I don't think I would bother to open the envelope, if I were in that position.
Anyway, my point was that, just as one should not condemn all those who undertake overtime/VAPs/AAVAs as being greedy, one should not condemn those who did not return a vote as 'couldn't be arsed' or 'didn't think it was sufficiently important enough' or 'lazy'.
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I agree with what Gonzo is saying here.
Its not fair to say that all those that did not vote should be ashamed of themselves. I, and I am sure there are others out there, know of half a dozen ATCO's who fall under one of the following -
a - Were not able to attend a brief at their unit due to manning and therefore were not properly informed and able to make an educated decision
b - Some people did not receive ballot papers at all, one colleague received theirs the day the ballot closed
c - Felt that the whole consultation was so quick and mis managed that they had no idea what the hell was going on (I know some will say that it their own short sightedness but it happened).
It harks back to my previous post about the Union and their role in all of this. I don't feel they have represented us at all and to paraphrase a quote on the internal net (and to agree with ToweringCu), have shamefully ignored the 'democratic' mandate' we give to them.
Its not fair to say that all those that did not vote should be ashamed of themselves. I, and I am sure there are others out there, know of half a dozen ATCO's who fall under one of the following -
a - Were not able to attend a brief at their unit due to manning and therefore were not properly informed and able to make an educated decision
b - Some people did not receive ballot papers at all, one colleague received theirs the day the ballot closed
c - Felt that the whole consultation was so quick and mis managed that they had no idea what the hell was going on (I know some will say that it their own short sightedness but it happened).
It harks back to my previous post about the Union and their role in all of this. I don't feel they have represented us at all and to paraphrase a quote on the internal net (and to agree with ToweringCu), have shamefully ignored the 'democratic' mandate' we give to them.
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So it is all over. Some interesting and Witty comments on this thread over the last few weeks. The next big challange will be the pay award.
Anything less than RPI and I feel that we realy are on the start of a long slippery slope.
It would be interesting to see a new thread on why people are union members (given the vote and number of abstainers). I feel that too many see it as an insurance policy to cover up their own weaknesses in the profession.
Good ATSA's with some Systems engineering knowledge can play a big part in our Future centres programs so I hope that some will retrain as those that I have worked with have been well worth their money.
ATSA reductions wont only be limited to PC but Scottish airfields with the roll out of EFPS. Still a long way to go (IMHO) for PC and the systems that replace them will need to have good fallback systems and procedures which will prove (again IMHO) much more expensive than the projects would want in order to make those staff reductions. The latter was never more obvious than during the recent NAS-NERC system resynch problems where the OPS and theefore business effect was limited by the continuing production of good old paper strips distributed by the good old ATSAs.
Merry Xmas to you all.
Anything less than RPI and I feel that we realy are on the start of a long slippery slope.
It would be interesting to see a new thread on why people are union members (given the vote and number of abstainers). I feel that too many see it as an insurance policy to cover up their own weaknesses in the profession.
Good ATSA's with some Systems engineering knowledge can play a big part in our Future centres programs so I hope that some will retrain as those that I have worked with have been well worth their money.
ATSA reductions wont only be limited to PC but Scottish airfields with the roll out of EFPS. Still a long way to go (IMHO) for PC and the systems that replace them will need to have good fallback systems and procedures which will prove (again IMHO) much more expensive than the projects would want in order to make those staff reductions. The latter was never more obvious than during the recent NAS-NERC system resynch problems where the OPS and theefore business effect was limited by the continuing production of good old paper strips distributed by the good old ATSAs.
Merry Xmas to you all.
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FDPWalla
as much as I believe we should never settle for any less than RPI, I honestly don't think we will get anything above 3% - if that.
The union has asked for Aug RPI+1% (5.8% I believe), but asking for something and fighting for it are 2 totally different things, as we saw with "OneNATSOnePension".
Regardless of why people chose not to vote, a 35.3% non turn out over the board is very poor considering the ramifications of the pensions issue, and will only serve to make Management believe that in fact they can do almost anything to us, because we can't be arsed to vote about it (whether can't be arsed is the correct reason or not, it will be taken that way). I say that despite acknowledging the extremely valid and correct point Gonzo makes about some people maybe being unsure which way to vote.
A lowly 64.7% turnout is another victory for Mr. Barron in the 'divide and conquer' tactics.
As for Rumouroid saying what he/she did about ATSAs...
In TC the ATSAs work exactly the way they did at West Drayton. I have a lot of respect for the good ATSAs, though we do have some useless ones (it's a fact of life in any job).
However, they are paid extremely well for what they do - any sane ATSA will admit this. Anyone looking from the outside in would be amazed and incredulous at the salary for what they do.
However, the very good ATSAs that we have are worth their weight in gold and can make or break a sector... are they overpaid, or are they just very well paid??
I can't comment on the AC ones as their job has evolved.
However, Rumouroid has a very valid point - those operational staff that bleat on about CTC staff are a bit two faced when they then try to shoot him/her down.
The CTC staff generally get paid less, but do a lot of good work and long hours that goes unnoticed by operational staff, just because we don't undertsand it or there is not visible day to day evidence unlike looking in an Ops room.
I don't doubt for a minute that there is excess fat that could be trimmed at CTC, but that is true in the Operational side as well, if to a lesser degree.
We are talking about the financial health of the company, which is allegedley what the pensions issue was about. In talking about the financial health, statements such as Rumouroids are perfectly valid, whether they are found to be correct or not is another matter, but they do need asking.
as much as I believe we should never settle for any less than RPI, I honestly don't think we will get anything above 3% - if that.
The union has asked for Aug RPI+1% (5.8% I believe), but asking for something and fighting for it are 2 totally different things, as we saw with "OneNATSOnePension".
Regardless of why people chose not to vote, a 35.3% non turn out over the board is very poor considering the ramifications of the pensions issue, and will only serve to make Management believe that in fact they can do almost anything to us, because we can't be arsed to vote about it (whether can't be arsed is the correct reason or not, it will be taken that way). I say that despite acknowledging the extremely valid and correct point Gonzo makes about some people maybe being unsure which way to vote.
A lowly 64.7% turnout is another victory for Mr. Barron in the 'divide and conquer' tactics.
As for Rumouroid saying what he/she did about ATSAs...
In TC the ATSAs work exactly the way they did at West Drayton. I have a lot of respect for the good ATSAs, though we do have some useless ones (it's a fact of life in any job).
However, they are paid extremely well for what they do - any sane ATSA will admit this. Anyone looking from the outside in would be amazed and incredulous at the salary for what they do.
However, the very good ATSAs that we have are worth their weight in gold and can make or break a sector... are they overpaid, or are they just very well paid??
I can't comment on the AC ones as their job has evolved.
However, Rumouroid has a very valid point - those operational staff that bleat on about CTC staff are a bit two faced when they then try to shoot him/her down.
The CTC staff generally get paid less, but do a lot of good work and long hours that goes unnoticed by operational staff, just because we don't undertsand it or there is not visible day to day evidence unlike looking in an Ops room.
I don't doubt for a minute that there is excess fat that could be trimmed at CTC, but that is true in the Operational side as well, if to a lesser degree.
We are talking about the financial health of the company, which is allegedley what the pensions issue was about. In talking about the financial health, statements such as Rumouroids are perfectly valid, whether they are found to be correct or not is another matter, but they do need asking.
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Anotherthing
Thank you for your support, as far as I can see you are a well resepected and longstanding member of this forum and have many posts. It is difficult to be a probationer and post such an emotive issue and not get some support when what you know you are saying makes sense, however delicate the subject may be.
I knew I wasn't alone as I have heard many a conversation with ATCOs and ATSAs on this subject and many have come to the same conclusion.
As I previously said most NATS employees, certainly the operational ones are just waking up to the "real world". I'm surprised that we have managed almost 8 years since PPP before these questions have begun to arise. In most other companies they would have been asked a long time ago.
Thank you for your support, as far as I can see you are a well resepected and longstanding member of this forum and have many posts. It is difficult to be a probationer and post such an emotive issue and not get some support when what you know you are saying makes sense, however delicate the subject may be.
I knew I wasn't alone as I have heard many a conversation with ATCOs and ATSAs on this subject and many have come to the same conclusion.
As I previously said most NATS employees, certainly the operational ones are just waking up to the "real world". I'm surprised that we have managed almost 8 years since PPP before these questions have begun to arise. In most other companies they would have been asked a long time ago.
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I think you're certainly right when you say that its amazing that we have lasted this long. NATS, or what we used to know as National Air Traffic Services, is dead. Barron is nailing the coffin shut on its corpse and its only a matter of time before it becomes completely unrecognisable from the company that it once was.
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Barrons Vision of 2011 is NATS divided up and sold off, he's accomplished the first stage by improving the future financial health of the company by reducing the pension liability. What's next? 
some more shady tactics and Timeshare style briefings to brainwash more staff into massaging the company into a cash machine.
some more shady tactics and Timeshare style briefings to brainwash more staff into massaging the company into a cash machine.
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You missed out NATS after "End of" 
and possibly SERCO ...the beginning of....
Unfortunately Pandora's box is now open!
But we won't stand for that........will we? Our powder is dry
and possibly SERCO ...the beginning of....Unfortunately Pandora's box is now open!
But we won't stand for that........will we? Our powder is dry
Last edited by Vote NO; 20th Dec 2008 at 15:01.
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It must be really hard being Barron, soooo many tough decisions to make. Oooh what should he do next, organise what to spend the bonus from the pension proposal on, or more of working, sorry shafting together with the union to get his next bonus.
It really has disappointed me that they have used this "you'd better vote yes or else we're all doomed" technique to push this through and put the company on the market to the highest bidder.
I know, Barron can spend his bonus on a Caribbean island, he will still be surrounded by all his mates (sharks), that should make him feel at home.
It really has disappointed me that they have used this "you'd better vote yes or else we're all doomed" technique to push this through and put the company on the market to the highest bidder.
I know, Barron can spend his bonus on a Caribbean island, he will still be surrounded by all his mates (sharks), that should make him feel at home.
Beady Eye
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But he will get a bonus when he sells us off, now that some of us have agreed to this Pension deal, which amounts to the same thing.
You have to ask the right questions to get the right answers
You have to ask the right questions to get the right answers
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BDiONU
He may well have stated that he does not receive a bonus for the pension deal, however he has also stated that he receives a bonus for improving the future financial health of the company. I think you'll find that the new reduced pension liability has improved the future financial health of the company.
By voting yes all we have done is show that we will roll over and play dead everytime they threaten us with "you'd better vote yes or else" mentality. Expect a lot more of that in the future, even when Barron has moved on, he has now set the avalanche in motion and it is moving towards us gathering pace and ferocity all the time.
He may well have stated that he does not receive a bonus for the pension deal, however he has also stated that he receives a bonus for improving the future financial health of the company. I think you'll find that the new reduced pension liability has improved the future financial health of the company.
By voting yes all we have done is show that we will roll over and play dead everytime they threaten us with "you'd better vote yes or else" mentality. Expect a lot more of that in the future, even when Barron has moved on, he has now set the avalanche in motion and it is moving towards us gathering pace and ferocity all the time.
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Will he get a bonus? Are we being sold off? I know this is a rumour board but please! Can you provide some evidence, is this written down anywhere official?
BD
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BDiONU
He may well have stated that he does not receive a bonus for the pension deal, however he has also stated that he receives a bonus for improving the future financial health of the company. I think you'll find that the new reduced pension liability has improved the future financial health of the company.
He may well have stated that he does not receive a bonus for the pension deal, however he has also stated that he receives a bonus for improving the future financial health of the company. I think you'll find that the new reduced pension liability has improved the future financial health of the company.
BD