NATS Pensions (Split from Pay 2009 thread)
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: UK
Clawback is a term used by Mangement to drag folk in on their days off to attend certain meetings/courses.
Normally us ATC types owe them about two or three days per anum
as we don't sometimes actually work exactly 40 hours per week, and have to comply with the Clawback 
Normally us ATC types owe them about two or three days per anum
as we don't sometimes actually work exactly 40 hours per week, and have to comply with the Clawback
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
From: scotland
eglnyt
Because there is a big difference between age of death data and life expectancy. The regulator will allow Actuaries to use industry life expectancy figures if they can justify them but it's hard enough coming up with a life expectancy figure for the population as a whole let alone a very small subset of the population. For actuaries there is safety in numbers, by using the same figure as every one else they are following good practice and less liable than if they branched out and used something different.
Because there is a big difference between age of death data and life expectancy. The regulator will allow Actuaries to use industry life expectancy figures if they can justify them but it's hard enough coming up with a life expectancy figure for the population as a whole let alone a very small subset of the population. For actuaries there is safety in numbers, by using the same figure as every one else they are following good practice and less liable than if they branched out and used something different.
So is the life expectancy argument used by management based solely on historical data for NATS shiftworkers?
Just a yes or no will do thanks.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: 5116N00044W
bdionu
actually, the Employee Handbook Part 1A Chapter 3 says
And the only reference I could find to meal breaks was to one break of no more than 1 hour.
I think most NATS 'day' staff are contracted for 37.5 hours a week. Which is 9-5 Mon to Fri with a half hour for lunch.
Normal hours of work for full-time employees are 40 gross hours (i.e. including meal breaks) for a 5 day week.
And the only reference I could find to meal breaks was to one break of no more than 1 hour.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 531
Likes: 38
From: Southern England
So is the life expectancy argument used by management based solely on historical data for NATS shiftworkers?
According to the NATS Annual Report the last pension valuations were based on the actuarial tables PMA92 and PFA92. These are the tables produced by the Continuous Mortality Investigation and are the standard tables used by most actuaries for pension purposes.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 531
Likes: 38
From: Southern England
Forgot to add that if they used the 92 tables last time then they will probably use the 00 tables next time and it is the improvement in life expectancy between the two which causes some of the increase in pension costs.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: South of England
Peltonlevel,
Please tell me you are joking.
I'm perfectly aware of the diversity of jobs and residents in the London area thank you... I just think that using the "City" as a source of mean wage for comparison is a no brainer. FFS.....
Please tell me you are joking.
I'm perfectly aware of the diversity of jobs and residents in the London area thank you... I just think that using the "City" as a source of mean wage for comparison is a no brainer. FFS.....
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 762
Likes: 198
From: London
Forgot to add that if they used the 92 tables last time then they will probably use the 00 tables next time and it is the improvement in life expectancy between the two which causes some of the increase in pension costs.
CAAPS has recently increased their life expectancy assumptions and that's why the we have a shortfall, who decides which measure to use?
-The trustees. Are there any NATS board members on the board of trustees?
While I accept there are different international accounting standards when it comes to making assumptions on life expectancy, there would appear to be some flexibilty in which 'standard' to abide by. It does not seem unreasonable to suspect management have had an opportunity to make the pension fund look especially precarious in the run up to these negotiations.
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 306
Likes: 2
From: Down South
So there is more than one 'standard'?
CAAPS has recently increased their life expectancy assumptions and that's why the we have a shortfall, who decides which measure to use?
-The trustees. Are there any NATS board members on the board of trustees?
CAAPS has recently increased their life expectancy assumptions and that's why the we have a shortfall, who decides which measure to use?
-The trustees. Are there any NATS board members on the board of trustees?
Possible conflict of interest??
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 531
Likes: 38
From: Southern England
So there is more than one 'standard'?
there would appear to be some flexibilty in which 'standard' to abide by. It does not seem unreasonable to suspect management have had an opportunity to make the pension fund look especially precarious in the run up to these negotiations.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: 5116N00044W
This is a fact he failed to mention in the pension briefings
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Scotland
hey dc10man.
congrats on your approaching escape from nats and its mismanagement! glad you got what due to you in your pension. hope its still the same in 20 years when i approach the same milestone. enjoy the retirement!
ps remember to vote no!
congrats on your approaching escape from nats and its mismanagement! glad you got what due to you in your pension. hope its still the same in 20 years when i approach the same milestone. enjoy the retirement!
ps remember to vote no!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 836
Likes: 2
From: Costa del Swanwick
So I make it that I am working 181 shifts, plus 3 clawback days, plus 50 'sleep' days where i have spent 6hrs at work at NATS behest.
That makes 234 calendar attendances by my reckoning.
That makes 234 calendar attendances by my reckoning.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: UK
Just in case any one is waivering.........
Latest from the scientific Pension vote poll
Poll Results latest
NO ....82%....111
YES....18%....24
Remember this, Management have gone from "there is no other option if you vote no" to "It depends on the size of the No Vote" ... FACT not fiction ! So what does that tell you? Basically, they have another option and have been , lets say, economical with some of the facts and will be caught out if the no vote prevails!
Ask yourself, how safe will my job be if this deal goes through and NATS is sold off ?
This is your last chance
If you vote yes, you are a turkey voting for XMAS
Vote Here
http://snappoll.com/poll/301858.php
VOTE NO
MERRY XMAS
Latest from the scientific Pension vote poll
Poll Results latest
NO ....82%....111
YES....18%....24
Remember this, Management have gone from "there is no other option if you vote no" to "It depends on the size of the No Vote" ... FACT not fiction ! So what does that tell you? Basically, they have another option and have been , lets say, economical with some of the facts and will be caught out if the no vote prevails!
Ask yourself, how safe will my job be if this deal goes through and NATS is sold off ?
This is your last chance
If you vote yes, you are a turkey voting for XMAS
Vote Here
http://snappoll.com/poll/301858.php
VOTE NO
MERRY XMAS
Last edited by Vote NO; 8th December 2008 at 21:14.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: South of UK
need a new thread creep again for a few posts. We've covered banding, unit locations, NSL vs NERL, CTC Starbucks, AAVAs, working hours, luncheon vouchers......what else is vaguely pension related?
......what else is vaguely pension related?
