Question for U.S. & U.K. ATCs

[CaptainMidnight]

We have a private pilot here in Oz who has claimed the following:

By the way, in the USA ATC's will separate IFR aircraft when in radar covered class G. It's only in Australia that ATC's are not allowed to do this and are specifically trained just to give a traffic information service.

and

in the UK, air traffic control actually “control” IFR aircraft in Class G. The Plymouth tower manned by air traffic controllers sits in Class G airspace. Those who want an IFR service are actually “controlled” by air traffic control – either in the Centre or in the tower.

In the latter quote, the context he has used "control" means provide a separation service in Class G to IFR.

In the U.S. & U.K. is this really the situation i.e. you separate in G??

[Vortex Issues]

From UK MATS PART 1, Section 1, Chapter 3

Standard vertical or horizontal separation shall be provided, unless otherwise
specified, between:

a) All flights in Class A and B airspace;
b) IFR flights in Class C, D and E airspace;
c) IFR flights and VFR flights in Class C airspace;
d) IFR flights and special VFR flights;
e) Special VFR flights;
f) Participating IFR flights in Class F airspace;
g) IFR flights in Class G airspace being provided with a service by an approach control unit;
h) Aircraft participating in the radar advisory service.

[The Fat Controller]

I work in Area Control in Scotland.
In Glass G we MAY provide separation under a Radar Advisory Service, but often just provide Radar Information Service.
However as soon as an IFR flight contacts an airfield in Class G airspace that has an ATCO providing approach control, that ATCO will then provide instructions to separate that flight from other IFR traffic that are in contact with him.

[CaptainMidnight]

Thanks for this U.K. info. ICAO G is no sep of course, so you must have a difference registered. Interesting .....

[bookworm]

ICAO G is no sep of course, so you must have a difference registered.

The ICAO Annexes and PANS specify the minimum level of service to be provided to IFR and VFR flights in different classes of airspace. They do not preclude the application of separation in other circumstances.

The class G airspace in which a UK-style Approach Control Service or Radar Advisory Service is provided could not be class A-E because there is no obligation for IFR flights to participate. Whether it could be class F is open to a little more debate, but since a service cannot always be provided to IFR flights thaat wish to participate, I think it has to be class G.

[ISaidRightTurns]

By the way, in the USA ATC's will separate IFR aircraft when in radar covered class G. It's only in Australia that ATC's are not allowed to do this and are specifically trained just to give a traffic information service.


(US) - In this instance it depends on the controller providing service. Approach controllers are required to provide separation services for IFR traffic from known traffic - IFR or VFR. ref 3-1-1.

However:

5-6-1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:

a. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, or when a pilot requests. Allow aircraft operating on an RNAV route to remain on their own navigation to the extent possible.

b. In Class G airspace only upon pilot request and as an additional service.

c. At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for radar approaches, special VFR, VFR operations, or by para 5-6-3, Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.

NOTE-
VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot to comply with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.


..............

Center controllers (area) will never assign a VFR aircraft an altitude, they will simply tell the a/c to maintain VFR, therefore, they can not vector VFR aircraft for fear of turning the a/c into a cloud or some other factor that would make the pilot not comply with the FARs. Traffic advisories will be provided based on workload.

[chevvron]

See ICAO Doc 4444; para 8.11 entitled 'Use of Radar in the provision of Flight Information Service'.

[Spitoon]

The ICAO Annexes and PANS specify the minimum level of service to be provided to IFR and VFR flights in different classes of airspace. They do not preclude the application of separation in other circumstances.

bookworm, I've got it now - you must work for the CAA. That's the sort of cop-out they love to use whenever they're backed into a tricky corner.....or, perhaps, preparing for an ICAO audit!

[CaptainMidnight]

I assume the philosophy in Oz is that because in class G aircraft are not subject to an ATC clearance, may change heading and/or level, and there may be non-transponder equipped aircraft in the area, a RAS/RIS is the appropriate service.

Thanks folks - your info much appreciated.

[Mental Oriental]

I'm a former UK controller now working in Oz (still as a controller). Your pilot is right, certainly as far as the UK goes. Outside CAS (ie class G) separation may be provided as follows:

Procedural Approach - standard separation between participating IFR aircraft

Radar - under a Radar Advisory Service (now re-named "Separation Service") standard separation between IFR a/c in receipt of RAS and all others, subject that the final responsibility for separation rests with the pilot & that due to the inability to predict what other returns may do, standard separation may not always be achieved.

MO