checking of cleared level?
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checking of cleared level?
Can we not assume they are going to the correct level on first contact especially when we want to just climb it anyway? surely it would be clean when it is transferred from the offering sector?
Would save a lot of R/T time.
Would save a lot of R/T time.
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if you were working seaford sector yesterday, a couple of luton compton deps were transferred in error to them and the wrong cleared level was stated FL170 instead of FL210, for whatever reason this was not picked up on by the controller(s) and the aircraft was climbed straight through some of capitals traffic at FL190.
so yes, cleared levels are very important. the one time you dont listen is the one time it will bite you on the arse.
so yes, cleared levels are very important. the one time you dont listen is the one time it will bite you on the arse.
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And we turn back to the subject of another post : what may contain an initial call...
Despite the fact it is not mandatory to sent CFL, that's better if it is included....
UAC48
Despite the fact it is not mandatory to sent CFL, that's better if it is included....
UAC48
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Caesar, despite you age shown in your profile you sound like you're new to this job.
There are many, many things written into the procedures which may seem unnecessary - disregard most of them at your peril, even though you don't know why they may save your bacon one day. And if you do choose to disregard any procedures you'd better be sure you understand the implications!
There are many, many things written into the procedures which may seem unnecessary - disregard most of them at your peril, even though you don't know why they may save your bacon one day. And if you do choose to disregard any procedures you'd better be sure you understand the implications!
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The whole point here is understanding why we should ascertain the cleared level.
I'm sure i'll be corrected by people who know more about procedures than I do, but I believe it was to try to add some guarantee that an aircraft had meant to be transferred at that time. With the introduction of more and more standing agreements (for those who don't know this normally implies transfer of control on contact as opposed to at a geographical location) the chances of an aircraft taking someone elses call, for example, had much more serious consequences.
What irks me is (newer!) controllers who seem to stick to these rules without knowing why, take this example from a couple of days ago (also on ther seaford sector);
Aircraft departs Gatwick - No other planes within 20 miles.
Aircraft receives continuous climb from TC.
First call - "Hello London, speedbird**** heading 150 degrees passing FL155"
(okay, so he forgot to say what he was climbing to, but does it really matter? So he could have taken the wrong call - but is he clean? he's the only aircraft above that part of the English Channel!)
ATC response - "Speedbird**** roger, what is your cleared FL?"
"Oh sorry, Cleared, in fact levelling FL170"
So the aircraft levels at 170 and 10 seconds later begins his climb again!
This happens more and more because newer controllers don't seem to understand the book they just seem to know what it says.
I'm sure i'll be corrected by people who know more about procedures than I do, but I believe it was to try to add some guarantee that an aircraft had meant to be transferred at that time. With the introduction of more and more standing agreements (for those who don't know this normally implies transfer of control on contact as opposed to at a geographical location) the chances of an aircraft taking someone elses call, for example, had much more serious consequences.
What irks me is (newer!) controllers who seem to stick to these rules without knowing why, take this example from a couple of days ago (also on ther seaford sector);
Aircraft departs Gatwick - No other planes within 20 miles.
Aircraft receives continuous climb from TC.
First call - "Hello London, speedbird**** heading 150 degrees passing FL155"
(okay, so he forgot to say what he was climbing to, but does it really matter? So he could have taken the wrong call - but is he clean? he's the only aircraft above that part of the English Channel!)
ATC response - "Speedbird**** roger, what is your cleared FL?"
"Oh sorry, Cleared, in fact levelling FL170"
So the aircraft levels at 170 and 10 seconds later begins his climb again!
This happens more and more because newer controllers don't seem to understand the book they just seem to know what it says.
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Stilldarkandhungry
I'm sorry but how do you know that the controller in question does not understand the book? You are making an assumption. What is factual is that the book says that you MUST confirm the A/C cleared level if it is not stated in the first call. You are not given the option of choosing. Vital safety or total waste of time you MUST follow the procedure until the procedure is changed. Failing to do so is failing to do your job properly (however pointless or irksome it may seem).
None of the above should be seen as an endorsement of the futile, pointless, contradictory and downright stupid procedures in our book nor should you think that I disagree with your sentiments but you cannot criticise a collegue for controlling according to the rules.
I'm sorry but how do you know that the controller in question does not understand the book? You are making an assumption. What is factual is that the book says that you MUST confirm the A/C cleared level if it is not stated in the first call. You are not given the option of choosing. Vital safety or total waste of time you MUST follow the procedure until the procedure is changed. Failing to do so is failing to do your job properly (however pointless or irksome it may seem).
None of the above should be seen as an endorsement of the futile, pointless, contradictory and downright stupid procedures in our book nor should you think that I disagree with your sentiments but you cannot criticise a collegue for controlling according to the rules.
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Arkady is right. If the pilot doesn't comply with the book (AIP in their case), and the ATCO doesn't pick it up and correct it (or ensure it is safe), then when it all goes wrong because the pilot didn't report, and the ATCO didn't query an incorrect cleared level, who do you think will carry the can ??
That'll be the ATCO then
That'll be the ATCO then
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This happens more and more because newer controllers don't seem to understand the book they just seem to know what it says.
OK, my comments are based on a limited sample of my own experience only so maybe they are mot universally valid. Or maybe I'm just getting old, I can remember old codgers saying much the same as me when I came out of the college and arrived green and enthusiastic at my first unit!
And apologies for being repetitive - I know I've done a post like this before.
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Arkady
PR
You both prove my point exactly - The book says we must do a lot of things - that is not in question - the point i'm trying to make is understanding why the book says you must do it.
There are times in question, like the example I gave, where you do have the option of choosing, and before you all shout back i'm not talking about an instance in the middle of a crowded chunk of airspace where you can't see the wood for the trees.
I am also not getting on at the lesser experienced amongst us - this is a fluid job and if you always do what the book says without thinking you won't do the best job you can.
What is factual is that the book says that you MUST confirm the A/C cleared level if it is not stated in the first call. You are not given the option of choosing.
Arkady is right
There are times in question, like the example I gave, where you do have the option of choosing, and before you all shout back i'm not talking about an instance in the middle of a crowded chunk of airspace where you can't see the wood for the trees.
I am also not getting on at the lesser experienced amongst us - this is a fluid job and if you always do what the book says without thinking you won't do the best job you can.
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Still dark etc
A voice of common sense in the whirlpool of "the book says this,so I must do it".In TC, on first call on departure,pilots are required to state;sid,passing altitude and cleared altitude.If I had a quid for every time that I heard people blather on to the crews about what they are supposed to say and have'nt(no immediate safety issue involved with the situation)I could afford to retire now.Meanwhile the rest of the sector can be turning to rat ****.Priorities-follow the book?Hairy spherical dangly bits!
A voice of common sense in the whirlpool of "the book says this,so I must do it".In TC, on first call on departure,pilots are required to state;sid,passing altitude and cleared altitude.If I had a quid for every time that I heard people blather on to the crews about what they are supposed to say and have'nt(no immediate safety issue involved with the situation)I could afford to retire now.Meanwhile the rest of the sector can be turning to rat ****.Priorities-follow the book?Hairy spherical dangly bits!
As I say there is a difference between doing "things right" and doing the "right thing".
But as a pilot perhaps I could make a comment here - the a/c in question should have passed the cleared level on transfer but did not do so. I suppose even the best of us might be guilty of an occasional lapse but there are times when I am quite disappointed by some of the RT I hear from fellow pilots. It is our job as professionals to know and follow the correct procedures. From a pure airmanship point of view I regard the confirmation of the cleared level on transfer a good insurance policy!
But as a pilot perhaps I could make a comment here - the a/c in question should have passed the cleared level on transfer but did not do so. I suppose even the best of us might be guilty of an occasional lapse but there are times when I am quite disappointed by some of the RT I hear from fellow pilots. It is our job as professionals to know and follow the correct procedures. From a pure airmanship point of view I regard the confirmation of the cleared level on transfer a good insurance policy!
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There is, what I think, is a brilliant example of why we need to check cleared flight level upon first contact. The incident occurred because the a/c was transfered from South to the wrong sector (Hurn I think) instead of Capital climbing to FL150 instead of FL210. This wasn't picked up on first contact and the controller climbed the a/c to FL230 in direct conflict to someting else at FL190 ( I think ) working Capital. Nearest point of contact, about a mile and 600ft.
The point is that the wrong level was either omitted or not picked up on first contact. If it was challenged then I dare say this incident would never have happened. If we weren't supposed to check the cleared level on first contact and assume the a/c are clean, then how many close escapes would we have? This incident by the way occurred within the last month.
I'm not in any way pointing fingers because, when the chips are down, we all miss things and have "there but for the grace of God go I" moments, but if we have it implanted in our brains that we're supposed to do this, then the chances of us missing things like cleared levels and wrong readbacks etc decreases which can only be a good thing.
Trainees are in some respects are caught between a rock and a hard place with regards to questioning procedures. There are some mentors whose attitude is "that is the way we always do it" so you will do it to, and those who are happy to be challenged and explain why we have these procedures. It does however depend on how the person ( in this example the trainee ) phrases the question. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have to check the cleared FL because someone in the past ( and recentley ) has caught a cold because they haven't, and trainees should challenge mentors when they don't understand procedures albeit in a nice way.
The point is that the wrong level was either omitted or not picked up on first contact. If it was challenged then I dare say this incident would never have happened. If we weren't supposed to check the cleared level on first contact and assume the a/c are clean, then how many close escapes would we have? This incident by the way occurred within the last month.
I'm not in any way pointing fingers because, when the chips are down, we all miss things and have "there but for the grace of God go I" moments, but if we have it implanted in our brains that we're supposed to do this, then the chances of us missing things like cleared levels and wrong readbacks etc decreases which can only be a good thing.
Trainees are in some respects are caught between a rock and a hard place with regards to questioning procedures. There are some mentors whose attitude is "that is the way we always do it" so you will do it to, and those who are happy to be challenged and explain why we have these procedures. It does however depend on how the person ( in this example the trainee ) phrases the question. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have to check the cleared FL because someone in the past ( and recentley ) has caught a cold because they haven't, and trainees should challenge mentors when they don't understand procedures albeit in a nice way.
Last edited by coracle; 21st Aug 2008 at 07:16.
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Double Checking
I will always double-check an A/C's cleared altitude in one form or another.
If an A/C comes over and states his cleared altitude (as a requirement in every country that I have worked in) then all is good.
If they do not tell me their cleared ALT then I will make a point of confirming it.
"Dog control, ABC passing 15500'"
"ABC, Dog control, roger, climbing to FL240"
It is on the tape, the cleared altitude has been stated, there is plenty of opportunity to pick-up any incorrect altitudes and fix them.
At the end of the day, one of us will say the cleared ALT, butt covered, everybody happy
If an A/C comes over and states his cleared altitude (as a requirement in every country that I have worked in) then all is good.
If they do not tell me their cleared ALT then I will make a point of confirming it.
"Dog control, ABC passing 15500'"
"ABC, Dog control, roger, climbing to FL240"
It is on the tape, the cleared altitude has been stated, there is plenty of opportunity to pick-up any incorrect altitudes and fix them.
At the end of the day, one of us will say the cleared ALT, butt covered, everybody happy
