Safety together
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Safety together
This thread is meant to enhance our awareness in aviation safety
from the point of view of the ATC. The point of view consists also
of the good co-operation between ATCOs, Pilots, and all that work together
for better safety in aviation.
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to start with this diagram.
All input in making this diagram better is appreciated.
If you have other similar pictures, sharing them with all of us
might be a good idea.
The cool thing about internet is that you can
freely pick the info that suits your situation.
Quite a large amount of the info I write is to
help those, who aspire to work in the aviation.
That is the reasoning I write as disambiguously
as possible. (One of the values I appreciate.)
And well, I contribute in positive development etc...
I like enhancing the awareness concerning safety etc...
I do not work with the "government". Although I know that some
of us know a few legislators, I know that it is only common sense
to speak sensibly about important matters to ALL of us.
The good parts that we have in our systems are meant to be preserved.
And the rest we can easily forget.
The one thing that is for sure is that the world is changing.
Some of our systems, attitudes, procedures, mindsets need to change.
There is not any nation that is more perfect than others.
There is not a man made attitude that is more perfect than the others.
There is not a safety network that can not be enhanced.
from the point of view of the ATC. The point of view consists also
of the good co-operation between ATCOs, Pilots, and all that work together
for better safety in aviation.
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to start with this diagram.
All input in making this diagram better is appreciated.
If you have other similar pictures, sharing them with all of us
might be a good idea.
The cool thing about internet is that you can
freely pick the info that suits your situation.
Quite a large amount of the info I write is to
help those, who aspire to work in the aviation.
That is the reasoning I write as disambiguously
as possible. (One of the values I appreciate.)
And well, I contribute in positive development etc...
I like enhancing the awareness concerning safety etc...
I do not work with the "government". Although I know that some
of us know a few legislators, I know that it is only common sense
to speak sensibly about important matters to ALL of us.
The good parts that we have in our systems are meant to be preserved.
And the rest we can easily forget.
The one thing that is for sure is that the world is changing.
Some of our systems, attitudes, procedures, mindsets need to change.
There is not any nation that is more perfect than others.
There is not a man made attitude that is more perfect than the others.
There is not a safety network that can not be enhanced.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 21st May 2008 at 05:09. Reason: updating the diagram, of, in, the
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<<That is the reasoning I write as disambiguously as possible.>>
Slo Moe.. "Disambiguous" does not appear in any dictionary I can find. I think perhaps you mean "unambiguously"??!!
With every respect, you are obviously not a native English speaker and I therefore wonder which country you hail from? Perhaps one where aviation is not so advanced as in western Europe, USA, etc? Most of your lengthy postings could be reduced to a few words too.. The diagram above conveys absolutely nothing to me me as a licenced controller so what is it intended to convey, please.
Having served as a controller both abroad and in the UK most of my life I'm fairly satisfied that UK safety awareness is more than adequate. The controllers are well trained and there are a number of programmes for reporting problems which might involve safety. Controllers have regular sessions on simulators during which emergency situations are examined and they see films and involve in discussions on the exercises they have practiced.
You have said "Some of our systems, attitudes, procedures, mindsets need to change.", or similar, in a number of threads on Pprune but nowhere (that I have seen) have you suggested how they might be changed. In any event, do you really believe that an individual can change something which has been built up by top professionals in a different country over a very long period? I seriously doubt it.
Tell us where you are from, where you work and details of your experience in these matters otherwise it is not worth responding.
Slo Moe.. "Disambiguous" does not appear in any dictionary I can find. I think perhaps you mean "unambiguously"??!!
With every respect, you are obviously not a native English speaker and I therefore wonder which country you hail from? Perhaps one where aviation is not so advanced as in western Europe, USA, etc? Most of your lengthy postings could be reduced to a few words too.. The diagram above conveys absolutely nothing to me me as a licenced controller so what is it intended to convey, please.
Having served as a controller both abroad and in the UK most of my life I'm fairly satisfied that UK safety awareness is more than adequate. The controllers are well trained and there are a number of programmes for reporting problems which might involve safety. Controllers have regular sessions on simulators during which emergency situations are examined and they see films and involve in discussions on the exercises they have practiced.
You have said "Some of our systems, attitudes, procedures, mindsets need to change.", or similar, in a number of threads on Pprune but nowhere (that I have seen) have you suggested how they might be changed. In any event, do you really believe that an individual can change something which has been built up by top professionals in a different country over a very long period? I seriously doubt it.
Tell us where you are from, where you work and details of your experience in these matters otherwise it is not worth responding.
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I am so happy to read that this is so very obvious to you.
Pprune is an open forum, where all the readers do not have
your distinguished experience from so many decades.
The thing that I am stating is the obvious fact that in every
country the air traffic control officers (ATCOs) work
constantly to make safety better.
<Off topic>
I respect your opinions and attitudes once again.
Some of my own opinions might be perceived "so last week"
So it goes.
Since my opinions are my personal I would not like to "colour" the
views of anyone about my countrymen. There are about a few million
of my countrymen with quite much differing opinions about so many things.
It is only fair that the way that they are perceived is not coloured by
one person and one person only.
Thank you for correcting my vocabulary!
Quote:
There is not any nation that is more perfect than others.
There is not a man made attitude that is more perfect than the others.
There is not a safety network that can not be enhanced.
<End off topic>
Pprune is an open forum, where all the readers do not have
your distinguished experience from so many decades.
The thing that I am stating is the obvious fact that in every
country the air traffic control officers (ATCOs) work
constantly to make safety better.
<Off topic>
I respect your opinions and attitudes once again.
Some of my own opinions might be perceived "so last week"
So it goes.
Since my opinions are my personal I would not like to "colour" the
views of anyone about my countrymen. There are about a few million
of my countrymen with quite much differing opinions about so many things.
It is only fair that the way that they are perceived is not coloured by
one person and one person only.
Thank you for correcting my vocabulary!
Quote:
There is not any nation that is more perfect than others.
There is not a man made attitude that is more perfect than the others.
There is not a safety network that can not be enhanced.
<End off topic>
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th May 2008 at 12:36. Reason: one letter added, are->is
Sloe Moe
You might not be a native English speaker, but that should not prevent you from writing factually and briefly, not in rambling, academic terms. You would communicate far more effectively if you were to do so.
If you are proposing your illustration as an advertisement for some sort of campaign, you should be able to see the problems yourself as it has obvious errors that you do not make in the texts of your posts. For example, inconsistent use of full stops, incorrect use of hyphens, lack of spaces where required - and as for the balance and layout...!
But then, as Heathrow Director says, what are you trying to illustrate? You are either reinventing the wheel or James Reason's Swiss cheese. I have always thought the latter daft, by the way - why invent an analogy when decription of the facts plus the mathematics of chance and coincidence would be perfectly understandable?
You might not be a native English speaker, but that should not prevent you from writing factually and briefly, not in rambling, academic terms. You would communicate far more effectively if you were to do so.
If you are proposing your illustration as an advertisement for some sort of campaign, you should be able to see the problems yourself as it has obvious errors that you do not make in the texts of your posts. For example, inconsistent use of full stops, incorrect use of hyphens, lack of spaces where required - and as for the balance and layout...!
But then, as Heathrow Director says, what are you trying to illustrate? You are either reinventing the wheel or James Reason's Swiss cheese. I have always thought the latter daft, by the way - why invent an analogy when decription of the facts plus the mathematics of chance and coincidence would be perfectly understandable?
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2 sheds
Thank you for pointing out these. Thank you very much indeed.
Constructive ways are constructive indeed.
I will modify the picture, I will modify my style accordingly.
Might take a while, old habits, other hobbies etc...
Did you find any positive points?
The "James Reason" model is quite OK. More models might
be OK also.
Thank you for pointing out these. Thank you very much indeed.
Constructive ways are constructive indeed.
I will modify the picture, I will modify my style accordingly.
Might take a while, old habits, other hobbies etc...
Did you find any positive points?
The "James Reason" model is quite OK. More models might
be OK also.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th May 2008 at 13:44. Reason: u->i, j->J
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The earliest version of the "wedding-cake" model I put out to be criticized
is from couple of years back. I made it a bit hastily,
it was presented in a Rotary club to non-professionals, I did not
have that much time to make it "word perfect" or "layout perfect".
All advice is taken with gratitude.
If you can make a better alternative, then you are quite free to express
yourself. With your own words and your own style. There might be some
commenting, but you can take them constructively and learn from them.
The opinion on this slide is my personal opinion, it
does not represent any organizations
named on the slide or in these texts.
I have given this presentation in other forums
also.
is from couple of years back. I made it a bit hastily,
it was presented in a Rotary club to non-professionals, I did not
have that much time to make it "word perfect" or "layout perfect".
All advice is taken with gratitude.
If you can make a better alternative, then you are quite free to express
yourself. With your own words and your own style. There might be some
commenting, but you can take them constructively and learn from them.
The opinion on this slide is my personal opinion, it
does not represent any organizations
named on the slide or in these texts.
I have given this presentation in other forums
also.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th May 2008 at 14:22. Reason: disclaimer
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Thank you very big...
Done. Could not see that oneself. Thanks mate.
The main reason why I put the "Copied from Pprune" is
that I am really and profoundly grateful of the Pprune.
With your help, and the contribution of the people writing
on the ATC forum we were quite well prepared,
when we moved abroad. Still interesting things happened,
that much I can tell you...
So thank you very much!
If the Pprune admin/board find this (advert, sort of)
not a good idea, then it is a simple deletion that
I can do easily.
Done. Could not see that oneself. Thanks mate.
The main reason why I put the "Copied from Pprune" is
that I am really and profoundly grateful of the Pprune.
With your help, and the contribution of the people writing
on the ATC forum we were quite well prepared,
when we moved abroad. Still interesting things happened,
that much I can tell you...
So thank you very much!
If the Pprune admin/board find this (advert, sort of)
not a good idea, then it is a simple deletion that
I can do easily.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th May 2008 at 18:39. Reason: done
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Good idea, worth considering
2 sheds :
I did not particularly think of any sort of campaign, when starting this
thread. "Safety awareness" was the key phrase in my mind.It might actually
be worth thinking. Sounds like an idea that shows the power of
many.(Pprune:rs) Thank you for bringing this kind of idea to surface.
The names that I considered for this thread were like:
SafeTee TwoGether
SafeT 2Gether
Safety is built together
Different audiences, different names...
They are free for you to use, if needed.
I did not particularly think of any sort of campaign, when starting this
thread. "Safety awareness" was the key phrase in my mind.It might actually
be worth thinking. Sounds like an idea that shows the power of
many.(Pprune:rs) Thank you for bringing this kind of idea to surface.
The names that I considered for this thread were like:
SafeTee TwoGether
SafeT 2Gether
Safety is built together
Different audiences, different names...
They are free for you to use, if needed.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 21st May 2008 at 05:12. Reason: "" words->phrase
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EC Information Channels
OK, friends. The next picture for all of us.
You are free to comment.
On this picture is a representation of almost all of the
information channels of the EC. The Executive Controller (EC)
gathers the information to make sound judgement
of the situations and circumstances from these channels.
These are the crucial information
the EC utilizes to make her/his decisions.
The point here is that all of these affect the safety one way or another.
Explanatory material:
Phone=Voice communication system direct telephone lines.
Radar data=All the data that the radar terminal provides.
Seq.=Sequencing information. Information provided by a computer about the order
on which the traffic should optimally be sequenced to the holding point or the FAF
etc. (FAF=Final approach fix).This information can be provided also by the planning controller.
ATSA=The information provided by the Air Traffic Services Assistant.
PLC=All the information and interaction with the Planning Controller (If any).
Super=All the information from the shift SUPERvisor
FDPS=Flight Data Processing System. Automated system for handling the flight plan information.
Strips= Information from printed paper strips or hand written notes. Can be printed on the radar screen
INFO Syst.= Auxiliary information systems. (Weather data, Airport info etc...)
Brief.=All the information presented on a shift briefing. (Weather, specials etc...)
Memo= All the data that is available to the ATCO from her/his short term and long term memory.
Some of the other possible information channels include:
COR=Coordinating controller
APP=Approach controller
ARR=Arrivals controller
DEP=Departure controller
TWR=All the tower controllers
All of the above are usually accesible with direct telephone lines. Sometimes
they are situated in the same operations room to ease the direct
communication, coordination procedures and supervising.
More common information channels in the ATC include the following:
STENT=Stentophone or equivalent. Direct voice channel from working
position to another. Sometimes verbal communication happens directly
between positions without any electronic equipment. In some ATSU:s
(Air Traffic Services Units) it is recorded, for safety.
OLDI=On Line Data Interchange. Semi-automatic interchange of the flight Data
between adjacent sectors or ACC:s (Area Control Centre=Centre)
OPS Room=All the noices and voices in the background of an Operations Room.
This can provide crucial information, e.g. if a sector is dealing with an out of the ordinary situation.
You are free to comment.
On this picture is a representation of almost all of the
information channels of the EC. The Executive Controller (EC)
gathers the information to make sound judgement
of the situations and circumstances from these channels.
These are the crucial information
the EC utilizes to make her/his decisions.
The point here is that all of these affect the safety one way or another.
Explanatory material:
Phone=Voice communication system direct telephone lines.
Radar data=All the data that the radar terminal provides.
Seq.=Sequencing information. Information provided by a computer about the order
on which the traffic should optimally be sequenced to the holding point or the FAF
etc. (FAF=Final approach fix).This information can be provided also by the planning controller.
ATSA=The information provided by the Air Traffic Services Assistant.
PLC=All the information and interaction with the Planning Controller (If any).
Super=All the information from the shift SUPERvisor
FDPS=Flight Data Processing System. Automated system for handling the flight plan information.
Strips= Information from printed paper strips or hand written notes. Can be printed on the radar screen
INFO Syst.= Auxiliary information systems. (Weather data, Airport info etc...)
Brief.=All the information presented on a shift briefing. (Weather, specials etc...)
Memo= All the data that is available to the ATCO from her/his short term and long term memory.
Some of the other possible information channels include:
COR=Coordinating controller
APP=Approach controller
ARR=Arrivals controller
DEP=Departure controller
TWR=All the tower controllers
All of the above are usually accesible with direct telephone lines. Sometimes
they are situated in the same operations room to ease the direct
communication, coordination procedures and supervising.
More common information channels in the ATC include the following:
STENT=Stentophone or equivalent. Direct voice channel from working
position to another. Sometimes verbal communication happens directly
between positions without any electronic equipment. In some ATSU:s
(Air Traffic Services Units) it is recorded, for safety.
OLDI=On Line Data Interchange. Semi-automatic interchange of the flight Data
between adjacent sectors or ACC:s (Area Control Centre=Centre)
OPS Room=All the noices and voices in the background of an Operations Room.
This can provide crucial information, e.g. if a sector is dealing with an out of the ordinary situation.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 21st May 2008 at 05:16. Reason: usually<->are, from these, of the EC, radar screen, recordings,[U], point here
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Is anyone else really really confused?
Slomoe, it's really nice that you take aviation safety so seriously to re?-produce these models on here.
Can I just ask though, why?
Is there a question you want answering?
Do you want ATC to comment on the design of the safety models?
Do you want our input?
I'm not sure I understand why you're posting. I along with many others look forward to helping when we can though.
Kind regards,
Bri.
Slomoe, it's really nice that you take aviation safety so seriously to re?-produce these models on here.
Can I just ask though, why?
Is there a question you want answering?
Do you want ATC to comment on the design of the safety models?
Do you want our input?
I'm not sure I understand why you're posting. I along with many others look forward to helping when we can though.
Kind regards,
Bri.
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Thank you Brian.
It actually dawned to me also after devising the latter
picture that how many information input channels the ATCOs
master when ATCOS are doing their job. Not many people
who are not ATCOs really understand this. It is sort of
building a bridge in understanding, that I am doing.
So I am kind of working on the questions. Thank you for your input.
At this moment this looks even to me as some pictures that could be used
on a presentation about the profession etc... Should someone need that kind
of pictures. But the idea is still forming I must admit.
"Learning to ask..."
There exists at least two models acting as metaphors for aviation safety.
Can you make a better one?
It actually dawned to me also after devising the latter
picture that how many information input channels the ATCOs
master when ATCOS are doing their job. Not many people
who are not ATCOs really understand this. It is sort of
building a bridge in understanding, that I am doing.
So I am kind of working on the questions. Thank you for your input.
At this moment this looks even to me as some pictures that could be used
on a presentation about the profession etc... Should someone need that kind
of pictures. But the idea is still forming I must admit.
"Learning to ask..."
There exists at least two models acting as metaphors for aviation safety.
Can you make a better one?
Last edited by Slo Moe; 22nd May 2008 at 06:02. Reason: question,
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Ok friends.
This message is short, it is almost self explanatory.
So this is not a test of reading comprehension...
Aviation safety is built in practises.
Safety is built every day.
Safety is built in every interaction.
Safety is designed in every system.
So, comments please! (Or your own opinions in the form of a "slideshow slide".)
This message is short, it is almost self explanatory.
So this is not a test of reading comprehension...
Aviation safety is built in practises.
Safety is built every day.
Safety is built in every interaction.
Safety is designed in every system.
So, comments please! (Or your own opinions in the form of a "slideshow slide".)
Last edited by Slo Moe; 25th May 2008 at 14:51. Reason: change of picture
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Hey Slo Moe,
It appears that most of the reponses to your statements are quite negative so i`ll try to be as positive as possible.
Its refreshing to find someone who obviously treats their work with such evangelical enthusiasm, however there is a problem. Whilst this is a private forum, and all the better for it, by refusing to even vaguely state your position, skills or qualifications you lack credibility.
It appears that like myself few people here believe that you have ever held an ATC licence and as us ATCO`s are a fairly straight forward bunch that makes a big difference.
So maybe you could just tell us why you are designing these slides and what help or assistance you require rather than just preaching to the choir, I think most of us have heard it all before.
Having said that, i do enjoy reading your stuff as you have a remarkable ability to carry on regardless of any one elses opinion!!
Cheers TR
It appears that most of the reponses to your statements are quite negative so i`ll try to be as positive as possible.
Its refreshing to find someone who obviously treats their work with such evangelical enthusiasm, however there is a problem. Whilst this is a private forum, and all the better for it, by refusing to even vaguely state your position, skills or qualifications you lack credibility.
It appears that like myself few people here believe that you have ever held an ATC licence and as us ATCO`s are a fairly straight forward bunch that makes a big difference.
So maybe you could just tell us why you are designing these slides and what help or assistance you require rather than just preaching to the choir, I think most of us have heard it all before.
Having said that, i do enjoy reading your stuff as you have a remarkable ability to carry on regardless of any one elses opinion!!
Cheers TR
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Having said that, i do enjoy reading your stuff as you have a remarkable ability to carry on regardless of any one elses opinion!!
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Thank you friends for your comments!
The topic of this thread might not have been expressed clearly.
My apologies for that. I am responsible.
So here is a straightforward question:
Can you make a slideshow slide contributing to the topic of this thread?
I would still like to point out that the person (with the handle of Slo Moe)
is sort of irrelevant compared to the issues at hand. There are some points
even on this thread that can be of value. For some these very points are
obvious, for some they are unheard of and then there is the lot in between.
Expressing ones' opinion is actually "easy peasy lemon squeezy", with a quote from one movie I like very much.
Comments are OK.
The topic of this thread might not have been expressed clearly.
My apologies for that. I am responsible.
So here is a straightforward question:
Can you make a slideshow slide contributing to the topic of this thread?
I would still like to point out that the person (with the handle of Slo Moe)
is sort of irrelevant compared to the issues at hand. There are some points
even on this thread that can be of value. For some these very points are
obvious, for some they are unheard of and then there is the lot in between.
Expressing ones' opinion is actually "easy peasy lemon squeezy", with a quote from one movie I like very much.
Comments are OK.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 26th May 2008 at 06:06. Reason: modus, a->e