What are your pet hate non-standard phraseologies?
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At 45 nm and FL70 I might well need descent fairly soon (my ideal from 7000' aal is 50 track miles, if QNH is high and the airfield not high then I might need 35 nm as an absolute minimum to descend safely), and it is perfectly acceptable to leave controlled airspace. At many airports I go to I need to at some stage anyway, because the airport itself is outside controlled airspace. Unpressurised aircraft have a limit to the rate of descent, especially if they have passengers on board. Some light twins can be very difficult to slow down without damaging the engines once a certain descent gradient is needed.
So while the call might be non-standard, the aircraft is also non-standard and the request is perfectly compliant with all relevant rules.
In fact, one of my pet hates is being told I can't descend because it would take me into uncontrolled airspace, I must wait x miles which means I am going to have to request extra track miles (or if I am flying without pax I have to use excessive rate of descent). Some controllers allow me to descend, so it isn't unheard of; that is why I ask.
At 45 nm and FL70 I might well need descent fairly soon (my ideal from 7000' aal is 50 track miles, if QNH is high and the airfield not high then I might need 35 nm as an absolute minimum to descend safely), and it is perfectly acceptable to leave controlled airspace. At many airports I go to I need to at some stage anyway, because the airport itself is outside controlled airspace. Unpressurised aircraft have a limit to the rate of descent, especially if they have passengers on board. Some light twins can be very difficult to slow down without damaging the engines once a certain descent gradient is needed.
So while the call might be non-standard, the aircraft is also non-standard and the request is perfectly compliant with all relevant rules.
In fact, one of my pet hates is being told I can't descend because it would take me into uncontrolled airspace, I must wait x miles which means I am going to have to request extra track miles (or if I am flying without pax I have to use excessive rate of descent). Some controllers allow me to descend, so it isn't unheard of; that is why I ask.
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Originally Posted by Life's a Beech
In fact, one of my pet hates is being told I can't descend because it would take me into uncontrolled airspace, I must wait x miles
ATC are obliged to provide descent that will keep you in CTA (and provide terrain protection), except in a couple of circumstances.
Though many ATC are aircraft enthusiasts not every one will know intimately the limitations on your particular aircraft. So without a reason or request otherwise, they will keep you in CTA.
This is a great example where visits and or phone calls will help grow understanding on both sides. If you had rung your local ATC shop and said "hey you know when I usually ask for descent before the next CTA step you guys always say no. I really need descent 'cause of my acft config, is there a way I can ask so that it will allow you guys to issue the clearance?" They may well have said sure just say ..., or given reasons why they CAN'T, not won't.
It is all about communication folks.....
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"QSY" is a pretty quick way of asking to change frequency - it is a pity it is not used all the time. I know it is incorrectly pronounced "Kwew-ess-why" which a pedant will probably say should be Quebec Sierra Yankee, but it wouldn't be short and sweet if said that way.
"QSY Exeter" - sounds good!
"QSY Exeter" - sounds good!
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I fly an unpressurised twin turbine, my normal track to my home airport is pretty much on the Loc for the main runway. normally the controller wont let me descent from my cruising level FL70 25 miles so im pretty on slope at that point. So if i maintian 220 kts IAS to 6 miles im gonna have a RoD of about 1300ft which is normally ok since im on my own but occasionally i have 9 PAX so i slow down. Travel slower RoD reduces. By slowing down 60 odd kts its going to reduce Rod to closer to 800fpm. Going to take extra 2 minutes to get on the ground, oh well, if controller wants to know why you have slowed down and stuffed his pattern let him know.
By the way QSY is used quite a bit up in scotland, the bond guys use it all the time
By the way QSY is used quite a bit up in scotland, the bond guys use it all the time
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newcomer -
Top marks to you for considering those passenger's ears! The reason a controller can't give you a glideslope intercept from over 25 miles out is that a localiser is only legally promulgated to 25nm, and the glideslope to 10nm. Outwith this you are subject to ATC's MSAs within certain ranges or the minimum radar descent altitude printed on your Radar Vectoring Area plate.
I still use QSY, which has been forbidden for years, in favour of the more correct "request frequency change to...." I've yet to be chastised for it!
You are unlikely to stuff a controller's pattern in an F406. Their speed flexibility is legendary.
Top marks to you for considering those passenger's ears! The reason a controller can't give you a glideslope intercept from over 25 miles out is that a localiser is only legally promulgated to 25nm, and the glideslope to 10nm. Outwith this you are subject to ATC's MSAs within certain ranges or the minimum radar descent altitude printed on your Radar Vectoring Area plate.
I still use QSY, which has been forbidden for years, in favour of the more correct "request frequency change to...." I've yet to be chastised for it!
You are unlikely to stuff a controller's pattern in an F406. Their speed flexibility is legendary.
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My pet hate is "squawk Alpha 1234" since Charlie is the correct term for Alt on the transponder. I know its a small thing but hey they always tell me off if i say "Radar Information Service". when I was supposed to say "limited Radar Information service due to low radar coverage"
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Kiltie,
I know Im not crazy, So I just had a very interesting read of CAP 413, Page 97 of 198 states very clear
Phase "Squawk Charlie"
Meaning " Select altitude reporting feature"
There is no mention at all about squawking Alpha .
I know Im not crazy, So I just had a very interesting read of CAP 413, Page 97 of 198 states very clear
Phase "Squawk Charlie"
Meaning " Select altitude reporting feature"
There is no mention at all about squawking Alpha .
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You're quite correct newcomer, but you refer to a totally different instruction, where the controller has specifically asked you to manipulate the "C" facility of your transponder. The "A" prefix you mention previously does not mean "mode A" on your transponder, it refers to something else of which the definition escapes me right now without the books handy. You won't find it in CAP413, it is more likely to be found in MATS. Perhaps someone else would elaborate with a definition.
In the meantime, if it helps, think of the instruction "squawk A1234" as "squawk A1234 with mode Charlie".
Controllers rightly expect that good airmanship will dictate squawking mode C at all times and should rarely require instruction to the pilot.
In the meantime, if it helps, think of the instruction "squawk A1234" as "squawk A1234 with mode Charlie".
Controllers rightly expect that good airmanship will dictate squawking mode C at all times and should rarely require instruction to the pilot.
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"Cleared to lock on"
when cleared for the localiser. Supposed to make speaker sound Top Gun cool perhaps, but merely sounds like an aerosexual pratt.
"Thank you"
when every readback. Just sounds stupid, the ATCO ain't doing you a favour with every clearance, it's just his job.
"Standing-by" or some other reply
when told to standby. "Standby" means "shut the f**k up, say nothing and i'll call you back"
"XYZ123, standing by for further climb please when you have it"
Are you paid by the word?? Correct phraseology is "XYZ123, request climb", if you must say anything, most likely you'll get it when that traffic plainly visible 1000' above you is clear.
"Standing by for ......."
If you're standing by, you should be saying nothing. Why not just request whatever it is you want. Don't worry, the controller won't be offended by a direct request.
"We're late, request direct ABC"
So what, the controllers gonna vector everyone else out of your way to accommodate your inability to run a schedule? If you can, you'll get it anyway, if you can't, you won't.
"At this time", "currently", "today"
Thanks for pointing this out, otherwise the controller may think that your request, or speed report or whatever, refers to a different sector you did last week.
"On guuuaaarrrrdddd"
SHUT. THE. F*/K. UP. PLEASE.
Ryanair pilots
Half of them can't speak English, the other half talk too much and are the worst bulls*it phraseology offenders (and are responsible for most of the above, except "on guard" which seems to be the preserve of Nigel's or Heinz's).
when cleared for the localiser. Supposed to make speaker sound Top Gun cool perhaps, but merely sounds like an aerosexual pratt.
"Thank you"
when every readback. Just sounds stupid, the ATCO ain't doing you a favour with every clearance, it's just his job.
"Standing-by" or some other reply
when told to standby. "Standby" means "shut the f**k up, say nothing and i'll call you back"
"XYZ123, standing by for further climb please when you have it"
Are you paid by the word?? Correct phraseology is "XYZ123, request climb", if you must say anything, most likely you'll get it when that traffic plainly visible 1000' above you is clear.
"Standing by for ......."
If you're standing by, you should be saying nothing. Why not just request whatever it is you want. Don't worry, the controller won't be offended by a direct request.
"We're late, request direct ABC"
So what, the controllers gonna vector everyone else out of your way to accommodate your inability to run a schedule? If you can, you'll get it anyway, if you can't, you won't.
"At this time", "currently", "today"
Thanks for pointing this out, otherwise the controller may think that your request, or speed report or whatever, refers to a different sector you did last week.
"On guuuaaarrrrdddd"
SHUT. THE. F*/K. UP. PLEASE.
Ryanair pilots
Half of them can't speak English, the other half talk too much and are the worst bulls*it phraseology offenders (and are responsible for most of the above, except "on guard" which seems to be the preserve of Nigel's or Heinz's).
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Interesting thread.
May I borrow some space for a couple of questions related to this?
Confirm cleared FL? I use this when I get a bad feeling about what's set on the APA. I can't say "say again" because it was probably some time since the clearance was given and I don't want to include the actual level so as to make it easy for the controller just to say "affirm". That is, I don't want to give the answer within the question. Is this ok?
Sweden, C/S, FL XX climbing FL XXX. I've seen here some object to stating the level being passed aswell as the cleared level. What's right or wrong regarding the first call on a new frequency?
And now for some critique from my side: The worst clearance I've ever been given:
C/S, Descend to FL 80, TL 80, QNH XXXX Result: Uhhh?!
Other funny things ATC say to me (mostly in a wide norwegian accent): It's aaaaaallmost CAVOK, broken fog. And for some strange reason, the phrase "Radar contact" in norway translates into "roger". Strange place.
LnS
May I borrow some space for a couple of questions related to this?
Confirm cleared FL? I use this when I get a bad feeling about what's set on the APA. I can't say "say again" because it was probably some time since the clearance was given and I don't want to include the actual level so as to make it easy for the controller just to say "affirm". That is, I don't want to give the answer within the question. Is this ok?
Sweden, C/S, FL XX climbing FL XXX. I've seen here some object to stating the level being passed aswell as the cleared level. What's right or wrong regarding the first call on a new frequency?
And now for some critique from my side: The worst clearance I've ever been given:
C/S, Descend to FL 80, TL 80, QNH XXXX Result: Uhhh?!
Other funny things ATC say to me (mostly in a wide norwegian accent): It's aaaaaallmost CAVOK, broken fog. And for some strange reason, the phrase "Radar contact" in norway translates into "roger". Strange place.
LnS
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Kiltie, you say that it is correct to ask someone to sqwark Alpha 1234, even though they are not referring to the Alpha mode, but to something you can't remember.
Now, I know I am being a bit picky, but some of you controllers come over so precious! What the heck are you on about? There should never be an instruction given that is not clear and obvious, that is the whole rationale for our bastardised UK phraseology. CAP 413 has been made into somewhat of a mess in an effort to avoid ambiguity. So are you really trying to tell us that the instruction to sqwark alpha 1234 makes any sense when it has (if you are correct) nothing to do with mode alpha?
If no one, including you, knows what this "alpha" bit is for, it strikes me that it should be expunged as soon as possible.
You controllers go on about cutting out unnecessary verbage, but you do it yourselves and even stick up for it!
Now, I know I am being a bit picky, but some of you controllers come over so precious! What the heck are you on about? There should never be an instruction given that is not clear and obvious, that is the whole rationale for our bastardised UK phraseology. CAP 413 has been made into somewhat of a mess in an effort to avoid ambiguity. So are you really trying to tell us that the instruction to sqwark alpha 1234 makes any sense when it has (if you are correct) nothing to do with mode alpha?
If no one, including you, knows what this "alpha" bit is for, it strikes me that it should be expunged as soon as possible.
You controllers go on about cutting out unnecessary verbage, but you do it yourselves and even stick up for it!
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Lifes a beech
Polite question wtf are u flying that sounds like a gradient of about 1.5%, over 6 times your height in distance?
Unpressurised twin at say 180kts should give you a thousand feet a minute and the old 421 could do 1500fpm at TOD with a few inches left on to keep the gitsos warm.
Just curious
Polite question wtf are u flying that sounds like a gradient of about 1.5%, over 6 times your height in distance?
Unpressurised twin at say 180kts should give you a thousand feet a minute and the old 421 could do 1500fpm at TOD with a few inches left on to keep the gitsos warm.
Just curious
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Polite question wtf are u flying...
Unpressurised twin at say 180kts should give you a thousand feet a minute...
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Riverboat, that's a bit harsh.
The reason I can't remember what the Alpha bit means is because my reference books are a hundred miles away; I am a pilot stuck in a hotel room, not a controller!! I knew the answer once but it has long since vanished in my shrinking memory.
There have been annoying differences between CAP413 and MATS for many years, but I think you'll find that's not my fault. My invitation still stands for someone to elaborate on this issue, not chew my f***ing head off, to solve newcomer's query.
The reason I can't remember what the Alpha bit means is because my reference books are a hundred miles away; I am a pilot stuck in a hotel room, not a controller!! I knew the answer once but it has long since vanished in my shrinking memory.
There have been annoying differences between CAP413 and MATS for many years, but I think you'll find that's not my fault. My invitation still stands for someone to elaborate on this issue, not chew my f***ing head off, to solve newcomer's query.
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low n slow
Yes this is fine. More than fine. If you are unsure ask. I'd rather you asked than had an airmiss with the one a thousand feet above your cleared level because you didn't.
Confirm cleared FL? I use this when I get a bad feeling about what's set on the APA. I can't say "say again" because it was probably some time since the clearance was given and I don't want to include the actual level so as to make it easy for the controller just to say "affirm". That is, I don't want to give the answer within the question. Is this ok?
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Sorry Kiltie. It did come out a bit harsh, and I apologise. I have always felt that you were very knowledgable, and generally had an answer for most things, so the last thing I should have done was seemingly get irritated with you! I was trying to make a point, but rather overcooked it!
I criticised some ATCOs for being precious and pompous. Uncalled for. There are lots of pilots who are as bad or worse, and the same goes for every other profession, I guess. I have plenty of ATCO friends, and they are great blokes.
I criticised some ATCOs for being precious and pompous. Uncalled for. There are lots of pilots who are as bad or worse, and the same goes for every other profession, I guess. I have plenty of ATCO friends, and they are great blokes.
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Pet hate: Tower gives you ur clearance to direct somewhere at FL100.
I get airborne clean the dirty plane up, set up the engines, ATO checklist then set QNH to 1013. I then get told to change to radar. I tell him passing FL30 cleared FL100. Im then told what is your passing altitude. This doesnt happen with every controller. Ive been cleared to a FL so arent i supposed to be using 1013. And plus if he knows my FL doesnt he know my Alt?
Very confused
I get airborne clean the dirty plane up, set up the engines, ATO checklist then set QNH to 1013. I then get told to change to radar. I tell him passing FL30 cleared FL100. Im then told what is your passing altitude. This doesnt happen with every controller. Ive been cleared to a FL so arent i supposed to be using 1013. And plus if he knows my FL doesnt he know my Alt?
Very confused
Bottums Up
Confused Newcomer
You're in Scotland, I'm in Australia. I know nothing of your rules and procedures.
However, here in Aus, the AIP directs one to change to 1013.2 AT or AFTER passing the Transition Altitude.
I'd be guessing that if you've set 1013.2 and then call "passing FLxxx" you're giving him/her a FL when s/he wants an altitude, thus s/he can't verify the accuracy of your altimeter or his/her radar readout of same.
You're in Scotland, I'm in Australia. I know nothing of your rules and procedures.
However, here in Aus, the AIP directs one to change to 1013.2 AT or AFTER passing the Transition Altitude.
I'd be guessing that if you've set 1013.2 and then call "passing FLxxx" you're giving him/her a FL when s/he wants an altitude, thus s/he can't verify the accuracy of your altimeter or his/her radar readout of same.