BeiJing approach ATC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BeiJing approach ATC
Hi everyone
I am the approach ATC from BeiJing (ZBAA) ,if anyone of you have questions about our way to instruct the aircraft , we can make a discussion here to make our service better.
I am the approach ATC from BeiJing (ZBAA) ,if anyone of you have questions about our way to instruct the aircraft , we can make a discussion here to make our service better.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Caucatc
Until recently, I was doing London Heathrow Approach. Please tell us a bit about Beijing Airport; how many runways do you have? Are they parallel or crossing? What mode do you operate them in (i.e. segregated or mixed-mode?) Do you apply ICAO standards, as a rule? How many movements do you do each hour? How many of your movements are by Heavy aircraft? Is your operation affected by bad weather very much?
.4
Until recently, I was doing London Heathrow Approach. Please tell us a bit about Beijing Airport; how many runways do you have? Are they parallel or crossing? What mode do you operate them in (i.e. segregated or mixed-mode?) Do you apply ICAO standards, as a rule? How many movements do you do each hour? How many of your movements are by Heavy aircraft? Is your operation affected by bad weather very much?
.4
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi 120.4
you were working in the heathrow approach ,that is really a amazing place !!
beijng has three runways now ,they are parallel ,the third runway is just been finished a month ago ,we are decided to use west runway in a mix way ,and middle runway for departure and east one for arrival ,but we will use them in a mix in the busy time .
now our flowment is about 1200 flights each day ,it could be 1800 each day when olympic comes.
we are affected much by the weather ,especially in the summer and wintere time .
can you tell me more about heathrow? i really want to know more about how does the foreign air traffic control like .
you were working in the heathrow approach ,that is really a amazing place !!
beijng has three runways now ,they are parallel ,the third runway is just been finished a month ago ,we are decided to use west runway in a mix way ,and middle runway for departure and east one for arrival ,but we will use them in a mix in the busy time .
now our flowment is about 1200 flights each day ,it could be 1800 each day when olympic comes.
we are affected much by the weather ,especially in the summer and wintere time .
can you tell me more about heathrow? i really want to know more about how does the foreign air traffic control like .
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
Heathrow has only two runways, they are parallel. We operate in segregated mode for most of the day although during the early morning arrival surge we operate some radar separated approaches to both runways. (All the arrivals at this time are Heavy so this means we get rid of the wake vortex.) Both the runways operate at saturation for most of the day; Heathrow currently handles about 1,350 per day. In ideal conditions we can do up to about 48arrivals per hour but more typically it is 42. Departures are normally about 45 per hour but if the traffic mix is good that can be 50.
We deliberately overflow the arrivals so that we have a resevoir of traffic holding in Heathrow's 4 holds. This enables us to maintain a saturated arrival stream, which itself pushes the arrival rate up.
Our radar technique is very deliberate. We use upwind legs where possible so that we can control the timing of the turn downwind. This enables us to fine tune the length of the final approach so that it is kept at the optimum 15nm. Operating a final at this length enables us to use speed control to adjust any vectoring errors so that we get as close as possible to minimum spacing (2.5nm) as the arrivals cross 4DME from touchdown.
The current operation leaves little room for error. Many of our flights are foreign and longhaul - people get tired and can easily misunderstand a foreign tongue. Plans are being made to change the operation to Mixed-mode and then add a third parallel runway to ease the pressure. (Should have been done 20 years ago).
The controllers operate a 10 day shift system; 6 days on and 4 days off. There is a need for great accuracy in radar skills and this means that our pass rate for trainees is not very high. The London TMA has also become very busy, as other airports have expanded. This makes the entire London ATC operation a difficult and challenging one and the demand for high quality controllers is very high.
.4
Heathrow has only two runways, they are parallel. We operate in segregated mode for most of the day although during the early morning arrival surge we operate some radar separated approaches to both runways. (All the arrivals at this time are Heavy so this means we get rid of the wake vortex.) Both the runways operate at saturation for most of the day; Heathrow currently handles about 1,350 per day. In ideal conditions we can do up to about 48arrivals per hour but more typically it is 42. Departures are normally about 45 per hour but if the traffic mix is good that can be 50.
We deliberately overflow the arrivals so that we have a resevoir of traffic holding in Heathrow's 4 holds. This enables us to maintain a saturated arrival stream, which itself pushes the arrival rate up.
Our radar technique is very deliberate. We use upwind legs where possible so that we can control the timing of the turn downwind. This enables us to fine tune the length of the final approach so that it is kept at the optimum 15nm. Operating a final at this length enables us to use speed control to adjust any vectoring errors so that we get as close as possible to minimum spacing (2.5nm) as the arrivals cross 4DME from touchdown.
The current operation leaves little room for error. Many of our flights are foreign and longhaul - people get tired and can easily misunderstand a foreign tongue. Plans are being made to change the operation to Mixed-mode and then add a third parallel runway to ease the pressure. (Should have been done 20 years ago).
The controllers operate a 10 day shift system; 6 days on and 4 days off. There is a need for great accuracy in radar skills and this means that our pass rate for trainees is not very high. The London TMA has also become very busy, as other airports have expanded. This makes the entire London ATC operation a difficult and challenging one and the demand for high quality controllers is very high.
.4
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
work 6 days and rest for 4 days ?
that is really surprise me , how is your schedule within 6 days ?
we work two days and rest two days.
in the first day , we work from 1130am to 1730pm ,there are 4 positions here ,most of the time there are 3 persons work shift on one position,we work one hours as a atc (who talks to the pilots ) and work as an assistant for another hour ,and rest for an hour .
in the next day ,we work at morning and evening ,in the morning we start from 0730 am to 1130 am ,and in the evening we start from 1730 pm to 2330pm ,there will be two persons work from 2330pm to 0730 am tomorrow ,these two persons will work from 1730 to 1930 only and go to sleep .
that is really surprise me , how is your schedule within 6 days ?
we work two days and rest two days.
in the first day , we work from 1130am to 1730pm ,there are 4 positions here ,most of the time there are 3 persons work shift on one position,we work one hours as a atc (who talks to the pilots ) and work as an assistant for another hour ,and rest for an hour .
in the next day ,we work at morning and evening ,in the morning we start from 0730 am to 1130 am ,and in the evening we start from 1730 pm to 2330pm ,there will be two persons work from 2330pm to 0730 am tomorrow ,these two persons will work from 1730 to 1930 only and go to sleep .
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
We work 2 mornings (07:00-14:00), 2 afternoons (14:00-22:00) and then 2 nights (22:00-07:00). The night shift is very quiet after about 23:00 and so normally 2 of the 3 night shift sleep for a number of hours so that they are reasonably fresh for 06:00, when the place goes beserk.
The daytime shifts should have at least 7 or 8 Heathrow controllers on duty although with the current shortage that isn't always possible. The law here requires a break after 2 hours although our agreement with local management reduces that to 1.5 hours. In reality it is more normal to work about 1 hour at a time.
On this Friday evening, the whole London operation, which is currently based near Heathrow will move to the main ATC centre near Southampton. This will then become the largest ATC centre in Europe.
.4
We work 2 mornings (07:00-14:00), 2 afternoons (14:00-22:00) and then 2 nights (22:00-07:00). The night shift is very quiet after about 23:00 and so normally 2 of the 3 night shift sleep for a number of hours so that they are reasonably fresh for 06:00, when the place goes beserk.
The daytime shifts should have at least 7 or 8 Heathrow controllers on duty although with the current shortage that isn't always possible. The law here requires a break after 2 hours although our agreement with local management reduces that to 1.5 hours. In reality it is more normal to work about 1 hour at a time.
On this Friday evening, the whole London operation, which is currently based near Heathrow will move to the main ATC centre near Southampton. This will then become the largest ATC centre in Europe.
.4
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Caucatc,
Your shift times wouldn't be allowed in the UK.The second day split shift is a definite ''Cannot'' here, because of legalised hours,and minimum time off between shifts.
A few questions though.Is Chinese airspace going to cope with the Olympics coming up? At HongKong we used to get some horrendous delays imposed by the mainland,almost without notice through BEKOL and DOTMI.
Is there still the requirement to have 5 mins between aircraft at different levels and how will RVSM affect the Mainland capacity.
My own thinking is that traffic from HongKong up to the mainland at the peak late morning rush,will be severely delayed to make way for International traffic.No losing face during the Olympics.
Your shift times wouldn't be allowed in the UK.The second day split shift is a definite ''Cannot'' here, because of legalised hours,and minimum time off between shifts.
A few questions though.Is Chinese airspace going to cope with the Olympics coming up? At HongKong we used to get some horrendous delays imposed by the mainland,almost without notice through BEKOL and DOTMI.
Is there still the requirement to have 5 mins between aircraft at different levels and how will RVSM affect the Mainland capacity.
My own thinking is that traffic from HongKong up to the mainland at the peak late morning rush,will be severely delayed to make way for International traffic.No losing face during the Olympics.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi 120.4
thanks for your answer ,in your previous post you said "We operate in segregated mode for most of the day although during the early morning arrival surge we operate some radar separated approaches to both runways. (All the arrivals at this time are Heavy so this means we get rid of the wake vortex.)"
i do not understand that ,why radar separated app to BOTH of runway? what is the distance between two runways ?
thanks for your answer ,in your previous post you said "We operate in segregated mode for most of the day although during the early morning arrival surge we operate some radar separated approaches to both runways. (All the arrivals at this time are Heavy so this means we get rid of the wake vortex.)"
i do not understand that ,why radar separated app to BOTH of runway? what is the distance between two runways ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi throw a dyce
I think i can not answer all your questions , because i am not the acc controller .as for the airspace to the olympic games , i have to say that ,we have already do whatever we can do ,and try our best ,such as in the app area , we built the 3rd runway ,but the airspace is still the same ,because the airforce restriction .
i do not know how does the acc atc think about the rvsm , but personally ,i think the rvsm will be a little bit difficulty for us at the beginning , especially the altitude ,i think you know that ,the real altitude display on the radar will be a little different from the altitude instruction we say , and also the shape of the route , i think that is so hard to cross the altitude within such a short straight route,that is easy to have the tcas warning if they have the excessive rate of descend .
5 minutes limitation ,i am sorry i do not know much about that ,but i think the reason is that some part of control zone is the procedure control , they calculate the plane as a manner of time , so the separation have to be larger than the radar control .
delay is really a headache problem for us ,some pilots always complain that ,but we need to keep the separation at first ,safety is the most important
I think i can not answer all your questions , because i am not the acc controller .as for the airspace to the olympic games , i have to say that ,we have already do whatever we can do ,and try our best ,such as in the app area , we built the 3rd runway ,but the airspace is still the same ,because the airforce restriction .
i do not know how does the acc atc think about the rvsm , but personally ,i think the rvsm will be a little bit difficulty for us at the beginning , especially the altitude ,i think you know that ,the real altitude display on the radar will be a little different from the altitude instruction we say , and also the shape of the route , i think that is so hard to cross the altitude within such a short straight route,that is easy to have the tcas warning if they have the excessive rate of descend .
5 minutes limitation ,i am sorry i do not know much about that ,but i think the reason is that some part of control zone is the procedure control , they calculate the plane as a manner of time , so the separation have to be larger than the radar control .
delay is really a headache problem for us ,some pilots always complain that ,but we need to keep the separation at first ,safety is the most important
Watch out for that Air Pollution.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Morning
Heathrow's runways are 1400m apart. Whilst it would be entirely possible to operate ICAO standard Independent or Dependant parallel approach operations, the ATC authority here has not applied the necessary ICAO safeguards. There are a number of reasons.
The most significant one is staffing: ICAO parallel ops would require a second Final Director and a Monitoring controller for each approach - that's 3 more control positions, which requires at least 4 extra staff per watch. As I said in a previous post, we just cannot get the staff to do that. Also, as the Government currently limits the time at which multiple approaches can be routinely made to 06:00-07:00 each morning the benefit gained in terms of capacity doesn't justify the additional cost to the system - we would have many additional controllers (assuming we could train them) standing around and only used between 06:00 and 07:00.
When (if) full Mixed-mode operations are introduced throughout the day, the cost/benefit equation will justify the staffing issue because the additional staff will be constantly in use and the financial benefit to the system will be significant (about 10% increase in capacity).
.4
Heathrow's runways are 1400m apart. Whilst it would be entirely possible to operate ICAO standard Independent or Dependant parallel approach operations, the ATC authority here has not applied the necessary ICAO safeguards. There are a number of reasons.
The most significant one is staffing: ICAO parallel ops would require a second Final Director and a Monitoring controller for each approach - that's 3 more control positions, which requires at least 4 extra staff per watch. As I said in a previous post, we just cannot get the staff to do that. Also, as the Government currently limits the time at which multiple approaches can be routinely made to 06:00-07:00 each morning the benefit gained in terms of capacity doesn't justify the additional cost to the system - we would have many additional controllers (assuming we could train them) standing around and only used between 06:00 and 07:00.
When (if) full Mixed-mode operations are introduced throughout the day, the cost/benefit equation will justify the staffing issue because the additional staff will be constantly in use and the financial benefit to the system will be significant (about 10% increase in capacity).
.4
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
Age: 78
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brothers and Sisters
Reading these posts from various places around the globe reminds me of an experience I had a number of years ago. I was on a cruise ship heading out from the port of Caracas, Venezuela to Aruba. Against the backdrop of lush green mountains, I could see the inbound flury of jets flying downwind, base and turning final for the ILS. In this magnificent setting it occured to me that I was watching the handiwork of another controller and I was struck by the fact that those of us who do this job have so much in common. We all think pretty much alike, live similar lives disrupted by our shift work and have a passion for excellence on the job. From Venezuela to Venice, China to Chicago, we controllers are indeed a band of brothers and sisters.
MyProAvi
MyProAvi
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
The military presence is minimal. It is confined to a base just north of Heathrow which serves VIP transport. The relationship between us is good and we are able to get along with minimal interference either way. Heathrow approach provides their Intermediate Approach Radar direction, they provide their own Final Approach direction.
.4
The military presence is minimal. It is confined to a base just north of Heathrow which serves VIP transport. The relationship between us is good and we are able to get along with minimal interference either way. Heathrow approach provides their Intermediate Approach Radar direction, they provide their own Final Approach direction.
.4
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Out of a Suitcase
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Things to change
Here's my list of things to improve in Beijing:-
Change the runway designation
Currently you have 36L then 36R which is now the middle runway and the new runway (furthest right) has been designated 01.
Correct designation is 36L/C/R - anything else will cause problems.
Visual Approaches
Last time I was in Beijing ILS 36R was inop (NOTAM issued). ATC cleared us for a visual approach 36R. This is unacceptable - only the Pilot can request a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I'm able to do a visual approach - it remains my decision.
Descent Planning
Descent starts 180 miles out and I'm always cleared to descend with a certain vertical speed. This brings me very low compared to the ideal profile - wastes fuel.
Tell me what altitude you want me to cross a waypoint and leave the descent profile up to me.
Final suggestion
All controllers from Beijing should spend time at other airports and learn from their colleagues.
Change the runway designation
Currently you have 36L then 36R which is now the middle runway and the new runway (furthest right) has been designated 01.
Correct designation is 36L/C/R - anything else will cause problems.
Visual Approaches
Last time I was in Beijing ILS 36R was inop (NOTAM issued). ATC cleared us for a visual approach 36R. This is unacceptable - only the Pilot can request a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I'm able to do a visual approach - it remains my decision.
Descent Planning
Descent starts 180 miles out and I'm always cleared to descend with a certain vertical speed. This brings me very low compared to the ideal profile - wastes fuel.
Tell me what altitude you want me to cross a waypoint and leave the descent profile up to me.
Final suggestion
All controllers from Beijing should spend time at other airports and learn from their colleagues.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BeiJing ,China
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks for your advice
thanks for your advice to beijing approach
1.the runway designation ,i do not know why "anything else will cause problems." if i tell you the right designation of runway how could cause some problems?
2.to the visual approach
the reason we do that is because of the glide slope is moving from east of the runway to the west , the aircraft may hide the signal of glide slope if it requirs whole runway departure ,and the signal could be unreliable .our regulation to that is when the vis is larger than 8km ,the aircraft can make a visual approach ,when vis is between 2km to 8km ,they can make a localizer only approach ,when the aircraft has established the localizer they may descend themselves and when the vis is less than 2 km ,they can make a normal ils approach. but it will be fine 1 month later.
3.descend planning
i am not quite sure about what are you asking ,but i think you may ask what the altitude we want you to reach when passing the way point.
all the situation i said below is in the normal :
on KM-11A , the aircraft should be reach 3600m when passing CD and 2700m when passing JR .
at the rest of the STAR there is no regular for that ,it totally depends on the situation ,sometimes the pilot ask whether there is a altitude restriction ,we can understand your mean ,and most of the time ,the pilot need to track on the STAR but follow our altitude instruction .
for more about the procedure , i suggest you to visit http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=295755&page=2
i posted a reply to the pilot's question about the delayed cleared procedure.hope that is useful for you .
4.to study with the collegue
thanks for reminding that , we will pay more attention to that .one thing i hope you can understand is when there is a delay or lots of maneuver ,it must be necessary , our airspace constructure and the restrictions limit us to give you good service we wish .
thanks for your advice and your cooperation again ,and hope you can have a nice journey when you fly to beijing next time!
1.the runway designation ,i do not know why "anything else will cause problems." if i tell you the right designation of runway how could cause some problems?
2.to the visual approach
the reason we do that is because of the glide slope is moving from east of the runway to the west , the aircraft may hide the signal of glide slope if it requirs whole runway departure ,and the signal could be unreliable .our regulation to that is when the vis is larger than 8km ,the aircraft can make a visual approach ,when vis is between 2km to 8km ,they can make a localizer only approach ,when the aircraft has established the localizer they may descend themselves and when the vis is less than 2 km ,they can make a normal ils approach. but it will be fine 1 month later.
3.descend planning
i am not quite sure about what are you asking ,but i think you may ask what the altitude we want you to reach when passing the way point.
all the situation i said below is in the normal :
on KM-11A , the aircraft should be reach 3600m when passing CD and 2700m when passing JR .
at the rest of the STAR there is no regular for that ,it totally depends on the situation ,sometimes the pilot ask whether there is a altitude restriction ,we can understand your mean ,and most of the time ,the pilot need to track on the STAR but follow our altitude instruction .
for more about the procedure , i suggest you to visit http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=295755&page=2
i posted a reply to the pilot's question about the delayed cleared procedure.hope that is useful for you .
4.to study with the collegue
thanks for reminding that , we will pay more attention to that .one thing i hope you can understand is when there is a delay or lots of maneuver ,it must be necessary , our airspace constructure and the restrictions limit us to give you good service we wish .
thanks for your advice and your cooperation again ,and hope you can have a nice journey when you fly to beijing next time!