BeiJing approach ATC
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caucatc,
I checked the other thread - thank you for the insight into Beijing ATC.
The current runway designation at Beijing is confusing. Ask any pilot - if they see three parallel runways they expect them to be designated L/C/R.
By having 36R as the centre runway and 01 as the right runway the potential for a serious incident is greatly increased IMHO.
If I remember correctly a similar situation existed at EHAM (Amsterdam) where the runway designation was 19L/19R/18. This was changed to the current designation 18L/18C/18R - the other designation caused problems.
Just to return to the visual approach - if I am arriving on an IFR flightplan ATC cannot clear me for a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I can accept a visual approach or I can request it - only then can ATC clear me for a visual approach.
When I was cleared for a visual approach 36R recently - I accepted the clearance because I could see the runway and because I was unsure what would have happened had I refused the clearance.
On the subject of descent planning - Beijing is the only airport I have ever flown to where you are cleared to descend from cruise level with a certain vertical speed (-2500ft/min). This approximates a normal descent but doesn't account for changes in windspeed. I have had to use speedbrakes to prevent an overspeed.
I have also found that we are kept very high when arriving on 18L/R- makes it very hard to fly a stabilised approach. I get the impression that not all controllers are aware of the capabilities of jet aircraft.
If you want an example of how things should be done then EHAM is the place to visit.
Thanks again for the opportunity to discuss ATC issuess in Beijing - looking forward to my next visit.
I checked the other thread - thank you for the insight into Beijing ATC.
The current runway designation at Beijing is confusing. Ask any pilot - if they see three parallel runways they expect them to be designated L/C/R.
By having 36R as the centre runway and 01 as the right runway the potential for a serious incident is greatly increased IMHO.
If I remember correctly a similar situation existed at EHAM (Amsterdam) where the runway designation was 19L/19R/18. This was changed to the current designation 18L/18C/18R - the other designation caused problems.
Just to return to the visual approach - if I am arriving on an IFR flightplan ATC cannot clear me for a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I can accept a visual approach or I can request it - only then can ATC clear me for a visual approach.
When I was cleared for a visual approach 36R recently - I accepted the clearance because I could see the runway and because I was unsure what would have happened had I refused the clearance.
On the subject of descent planning - Beijing is the only airport I have ever flown to where you are cleared to descend from cruise level with a certain vertical speed (-2500ft/min). This approximates a normal descent but doesn't account for changes in windspeed. I have had to use speedbrakes to prevent an overspeed.
I have also found that we are kept very high when arriving on 18L/R- makes it very hard to fly a stabilised approach. I get the impression that not all controllers are aware of the capabilities of jet aircraft.
If you want an example of how things should be done then EHAM is the place to visit.
Thanks again for the opportunity to discuss ATC issuess in Beijing - looking forward to my next visit.
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Visual Approaches
Last time I was in Beijing ILS 36R was inop (NOTAM issued). ATC cleared us for a visual approach 36R. This is unacceptable - only the Pilot can request a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I'm able to do a visual approach - it remains my decision.
Last time I was in Beijing ILS 36R was inop (NOTAM issued). ATC cleared us for a visual approach 36R. This is unacceptable - only the Pilot can request a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I'm able to do a visual approach - it remains my decision.
Just to return to the visual approach - if I am arriving on an IFR flightplan ATC cannot clear me for a visual approach. ATC can ask me if I can accept a visual approach or I can request it - only then can ATC clear me for a visual approach.
Here are some references to ICAO PANS-ATM Doc. 4444
(PS. I don't know if China is complying with ICAO)
6.5.3 Visual approach
6.5.3.1 Subject to the conditions in 6.5.3.3, clearance for an IFR flight to execute a visual approach may be requested by a flight crew or initiated by the controller. In the latter case, the concurrence of the flight crew shall be required.
6.5.3.2 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reason to believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and its surrounding terrain. Controllers should also take into consideration the prevailing traffic and meteorological conditions when initiating visual approaches.
6.5.3.3 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual approach provided the pilot can maintain visual reference to the terrain and:
a) the reported ceiling is at or above the approved initial approach level for the aircraft so cleared; or
b) the pilot reports at the initial approach level or at any time during the instrument approach procedure that the meteorological conditions are such that with reasonable assurance a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5 Vectoring for visual approach
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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hi ERIC
thanks for your post , can you tell me what is IMHO first?
as for the descent rate , the approach atc seldom use that ,but the acc controller usa that very often ,i think the reason why they want the pilot descend with a certain vertical speed is AVOID TRAFFIC ,the airspace limits us so much , the straight route is not long enough for two aircrafts to cross altitude from each other with a economy rate of descend, i think you are fly for the KLM , when you pass the KM , sometimes atc ask you to descend with a large rate of descend especially in the summer time ,why ? CLEAR THE TRAFFIC! because there is a converging traffic between KM-11A & CD-13D , especially in the summer time ,the aircraft do not climb as quickly as in the cold time , if you keep a economy rate of descend ,there might be a traffic alert on your TCAS !
we want all the aircraft fly economy ,but sometimes to keep you safe , we have to require you to do something you dislike .
when are you coming to China next time ? hope to have the chance to talk with you in the RTF
thanks for your advice again !
thanks for your post , can you tell me what is IMHO first?
as for the descent rate , the approach atc seldom use that ,but the acc controller usa that very often ,i think the reason why they want the pilot descend with a certain vertical speed is AVOID TRAFFIC ,the airspace limits us so much , the straight route is not long enough for two aircrafts to cross altitude from each other with a economy rate of descend, i think you are fly for the KLM , when you pass the KM , sometimes atc ask you to descend with a large rate of descend especially in the summer time ,why ? CLEAR THE TRAFFIC! because there is a converging traffic between KM-11A & CD-13D , especially in the summer time ,the aircraft do not climb as quickly as in the cold time , if you keep a economy rate of descend ,there might be a traffic alert on your TCAS !
we want all the aircraft fly economy ,but sometimes to keep you safe , we have to require you to do something you dislike .
when are you coming to China next time ? hope to have the chance to talk with you in the RTF
thanks for your advice again !
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the explaination to your approach on 18L/R
as you said , the aircrafts are always very high from the glide slope ,that is true ,and WE DO KNOW THAT YOU ARE HIGH ,why we do not let you descend to a altitude lower than the glide slope so that you can make a stable spproach ? still the same answer ,TO KEEP YOU SAFE! you can see the minimun sector altitude on the AIP ,and we have the minimum vector altitude on the radar also ,that is more accuracy to know where is the right place to descend to the right altitude .the MVA of north of 12KM from touch down is 1000M ,1200M and 1400M , you can find there are two mountains 859m and 659m near OB ,if you are descend to a lower altitude , you will have a GPWS warning , we will let you descend to 600m to intercept the glid slopeonce you pass the 1000 m MVA area .another way is , if you have ground insight , you can report that you have ground insight and then we will clear you to descend to 900m with visual separation with ground.
in fact ,we have those mountains also ,but we can not let you descent to a dangerours altitude.
to answer the question about "I was unsure what would have happened had I refused the clearance" if you are unable to do a visual approach ,advice us ,we will let you use 36L ILS approach ,or what else can i do ? we can not let you land even if you are not able to do a visual approach ,we are not dictators
in fact ,we have those mountains also ,but we can not let you descent to a dangerours altitude.
to answer the question about "I was unsure what would have happened had I refused the clearance" if you are unable to do a visual approach ,advice us ,we will let you use 36L ILS approach ,or what else can i do ? we can not let you land even if you are not able to do a visual approach ,we are not dictators
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ATSI
Thanks for the info - was not aware of 6.5.3 - learn something new every day.
caucatc
Looks like I was overly harsh in my comments on the the visual approach 36R - my apologies for that.
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.
Thank you for the additional info regarding the approaches for 18L/R. I will forward this to our safety department.
I don't fly for KLM. I operate the A330 into Beijing. This is a tricky aircraft to get down and slow down at the same time.
Don't have anymore flights scheduled to Beijing this year. I will let you know when my next visit is - I'd be happy to come and say hello (we only have 1.5 hours on the ground).
Thanks for the info - was not aware of 6.5.3 - learn something new every day.
caucatc
Looks like I was overly harsh in my comments on the the visual approach 36R - my apologies for that.
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.
Thank you for the additional info regarding the approaches for 18L/R. I will forward this to our safety department.
I don't fly for KLM. I operate the A330 into Beijing. This is a tricky aircraft to get down and slow down at the same time.
Don't have anymore flights scheduled to Beijing this year. I will let you know when my next visit is - I'd be happy to come and say hello (we only have 1.5 hours on the ground).
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To All THE Pilots Who Fly To Beijing
the sentence i speak very often to the pilot is :COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT WITHOUT YOUR COOPERATION ! i think there is no caste between the pilots and atcs ,i really prefer call us air traffic servicer rather than air traffic controller ,all we do is to make you safe and sometimes other factors limit us so much and we do not have enought time to explain that to you when we are busy .hope you can understand that .
ERIC
no need to apology for the visual approach , you are flying hard in the sky and i can understand that you want to land as early as possible and handle the aircraft easily and economy ,all atc ,no, all ats know that well ,and we will pay more attention to that in the future work , so that we could provide better service .
by the way ,would you please tell me which airline are you working for ?the reason i thought you work for KLM is because i saw your profile and you are from Holland.
welcome fly to beijing and thanks for your "harsh advice "
ERIC
no need to apology for the visual approach , you are flying hard in the sky and i can understand that you want to land as early as possible and handle the aircraft easily and economy ,all atc ,no, all ats know that well ,and we will pay more attention to that in the future work , so that we could provide better service .
by the way ,would you please tell me which airline are you working for ?the reason i thought you work for KLM is because i saw your profile and you are from Holland.
welcome fly to beijing and thanks for your "harsh advice "
