Mumbai ATC
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Mumbai ATC
Hi Boys and girls...
I am flying now for a while in and out of BOM as a West European pilot
and I am amazed everytime about the
in the BOM area.
People and ATC does not seems to have ANY RT discipline at all...
People blocking eachother out and not listening to what is said.
I truely think that the only way to make things better here is to get some expads in like they did in DXB and AUH.
What do you think guys?
Cheers,
Skylark3
NB: Please not that I am not slagging off any people (controllers, pilots, etc) ... Just concerned about the safely.
I am flying now for a while in and out of BOM as a West European pilot
and I am amazed everytime about the
in the BOM area.People and ATC does not seems to have ANY RT discipline at all...
People blocking eachother out and not listening to what is said.
I truely think that the only way to make things better here is to get some expads in like they did in DXB and AUH.
What do you think guys?
Cheers,
Skylark3
NB: Please not that I am not slagging off any people (controllers, pilots, etc) ... Just concerned about the safely.
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If you think Mumbai is bad - then you haven't been to Delhi.
My record in Delhi 1+40 holding - overhead the airport at FL220.
I'll take Mumbai over Delhi any day of the week
My record in Delhi 1+40 holding - overhead the airport at FL220.
I'll take Mumbai over Delhi any day of the week
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Not to go off topic, but I was recently in Delhi and the northern part of India on "vacation". Can someone elaborate on their experience at VIDP? I'd love to hear about it.
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The problem is much more deep rooted.
1. There is no concept of flow control/slots etc. in the country
2. Peak hours operations are way over the capacity.
3. The spacing is still at 7.5nm on the approach(though i do believe its going to come down to 5nm shortly)
4. Each controller is handeling much more on the freq. than they can comfotrably manage.
etc.etc.. Its the whole archaic traffic management system that is the culprit. Its just that even untill 2004 they were handeling less than half of what they do today.
sincerely hope it gets better sooner than later..
1. There is no concept of flow control/slots etc. in the country
2. Peak hours operations are way over the capacity.
3. The spacing is still at 7.5nm on the approach(though i do believe its going to come down to 5nm shortly)
4. Each controller is handeling much more on the freq. than they can comfotrably manage.
etc.etc.. Its the whole archaic traffic management system that is the culprit. Its just that even untill 2004 they were handeling less than half of what they do today.
sincerely hope it gets better sooner than later..
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I have some sympathy towards my fellow ATC's in India. I read recently that the Indian sub-continent has experienced the fastest growth in start up airlines and movements are increasing exponentially. Unless the regulator is managing this in a sensible fashion (doubtful) then it's left to the troops at the coal face to deal with it.
I deal with some of these airlines on a daily basis and generally find them 'ok' to work as I expect to repeat instructions two or tree times... perhaps it's my antipodian accent tho'...
I heard a funny story a while back from a mate in Muscat...
B777 cruising M.84 followed 11 minutes later by an A340 cruising M.83. Mumbai wouldn't accept this situation as the one with 4 engines was surely going to catch the one with 2 engines as it will go twice as fast!!
Hardly inspires confidence eh?
I deal with some of these airlines on a daily basis and generally find them 'ok' to work as I expect to repeat instructions two or tree times... perhaps it's my antipodian accent tho'...
I heard a funny story a while back from a mate in Muscat...
B777 cruising M.84 followed 11 minutes later by an A340 cruising M.83. Mumbai wouldn't accept this situation as the one with 4 engines was surely going to catch the one with 2 engines as it will go twice as fast!!
Hardly inspires confidence eh?
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1. There is no concept of flow control/slots etc. in the country
2. Peak hours operations are way over the capacity.
3. The spacing is still at 7.5nm on the approach(though i do believe its going to come down to 5nm shortly)
4. Each controller is handeling much more on the freq. than they can comfotrably manage.
2. Peak hours operations are way over the capacity.
3. The spacing is still at 7.5nm on the approach(though i do believe its going to come down to 5nm shortly)
4. Each controller is handeling much more on the freq. than they can comfotrably manage.
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I do feel sorry aswell for the controllers... But I think some action needs to be taken soon to improve safety. At least more freqs to reduce the no of a/c on one freq and people need to listen to other people before the transmit!
ATC needs to take action on some measures like more freqs I think, Not us pilots.
In the newspaper here in India there was a topic about foreign pilots' English.
They didn't speak good English and thats why it caused dangerous situations on the radio. I found that a bit... Lets say... strange...
We used to do BOM-DXB on a regular basis and found the expad controllers in Muscat and Dubai great to work with, isn't there any possibility get them in in BOM and DEL.. Or train the controllers somewhere in the UK (or US)?
I only went to DEL outside rush hour so I can't judge about that...
Flying BOM-LHR this afternoon, hope R27 is open :-D
Cheers
Skylark3
ATC needs to take action on some measures like more freqs I think, Not us pilots.
In the newspaper here in India there was a topic about foreign pilots' English.
They didn't speak good English and thats why it caused dangerous situations on the radio. I found that a bit... Lets say... strange...
We used to do BOM-DXB on a regular basis and found the expad controllers in Muscat and Dubai great to work with, isn't there any possibility get them in in BOM and DEL.. Or train the controllers somewhere in the UK (or US)?
I only went to DEL outside rush hour so I can't judge about that...
Flying BOM-LHR this afternoon, hope R27 is open :-D
Cheers
Skylark3
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More frequency's is definately something that should be done. As for the newspapers reporting the reference was to pilots flying with domestic carriers who come from mostly non english speaking countries, and in addition understand little english. They have difficulty in understanding the guys here and the guys vice versa for the guys on the ground.
Just a couple of months i saw an incursion while holding cause the guys at the controls did not understand they had to clear the runway instead of backtracking at one of the smaller fields. There was one on short finals!! Even me on the hold line had herd the convertsation enought to know there were two a/c on approach.
Having said that I must add the Press is really carelaes in reporting. they say all sorts of bull crap. just the other day they were calling a Go around A VERY DANGEROUS MANOUVER.. SECONDS FROM DISASTER etc...
Expat contriollers ain't happening!! put an expat with the same amount of airplanes to handle with the same syatems.. i am sure he/she won't fare any better. Its the systems that need to be put in place for flow management.
With RWY 27 closed Mumbai is absolute mayhem!! Got stuck a couple of times last week!! not a good situation.
Just a couple of months i saw an incursion while holding cause the guys at the controls did not understand they had to clear the runway instead of backtracking at one of the smaller fields. There was one on short finals!! Even me on the hold line had herd the convertsation enought to know there were two a/c on approach.
Having said that I must add the Press is really carelaes in reporting. they say all sorts of bull crap. just the other day they were calling a Go around A VERY DANGEROUS MANOUVER.. SECONDS FROM DISASTER etc...
Expat contriollers ain't happening!! put an expat with the same amount of airplanes to handle with the same syatems.. i am sure he/she won't fare any better. Its the systems that need to be put in place for flow management.
With RWY 27 closed Mumbai is absolute mayhem!! Got stuck a couple of times last week!! not a good situation.
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More Delhi experiences
In 2005/2006 about 90% of my flying was to/from Indian airports.
This year it's down to 40%
The biggest problem in India is that the infrastructure is simply not there - Pilots/ATC have to work within the limits of the current infrastructure. The current infrastructure cannot cope with the traffic volume - several airports already have parking problems.
In Delhi during the peak hours I have encountered the following:-
Simultaneous use of Rwy 27 & 28.
Traffic to each runway is on a separate frequency. The problem is that the departure tracks intersect about 1 mile past the end of both runways. If they get the staggered take-offs wrong there is a threat of a collision (hear there have been a number of close calls already).
Extreme frequency congestion.
The same controller handles inbound traffic and overflying traffic. Poor guy is completely overloaded - overflying traffic will give a poistion report which is acknowledged by the controller. 10 minutes later the same aircraft is called and asked to repeat the information previously acknowledged.
The situation is not helped by non-existant radio discipline or by frequent calls of "Happy Landings" or "Hi Capt XXXX". ATC sometimes has to call 3 to 4 times to get hold of an aircraft and clearances are frequently misread without any correction from ATC.
Ops/Dispatch does not operate on 121.5
Basic IFR procedures not being followed
I've lost of how many times I've entered the hold in Delhi without an Expected Approach Time. I've never received one despite repeated requests - this is simply unacceptable. The best I can get is my number in sequence.
Animals
Had a dog-like animal cross the runway ahead of me during take-off. I think it was a Jackal - hear they have some living on the infield
Apron Ops
Problems don't end once you've landed. They're very good at pushing aircraft back so that your route to the gate is blocked. Simply pushing back to a different location or pulling the aircraft forward will solve a lot of these problems. Common sense is lacking. Ground frequency is almost as congested as approach.
All of the above combined with continually increasing numbers of aircraft and decreasing experience levels on the Flightdeck are a lethal combination IMHO.
The fact that nothing has happened yet means they have been extremely lucky but the holes are definitely lining up.
This year it's down to 40%
The biggest problem in India is that the infrastructure is simply not there - Pilots/ATC have to work within the limits of the current infrastructure. The current infrastructure cannot cope with the traffic volume - several airports already have parking problems.
In Delhi during the peak hours I have encountered the following:-
Simultaneous use of Rwy 27 & 28.
Traffic to each runway is on a separate frequency. The problem is that the departure tracks intersect about 1 mile past the end of both runways. If they get the staggered take-offs wrong there is a threat of a collision (hear there have been a number of close calls already).
Extreme frequency congestion.
The same controller handles inbound traffic and overflying traffic. Poor guy is completely overloaded - overflying traffic will give a poistion report which is acknowledged by the controller. 10 minutes later the same aircraft is called and asked to repeat the information previously acknowledged.
The situation is not helped by non-existant radio discipline or by frequent calls of "Happy Landings" or "Hi Capt XXXX". ATC sometimes has to call 3 to 4 times to get hold of an aircraft and clearances are frequently misread without any correction from ATC.
Ops/Dispatch does not operate on 121.5
Basic IFR procedures not being followed
I've lost of how many times I've entered the hold in Delhi without an Expected Approach Time. I've never received one despite repeated requests - this is simply unacceptable. The best I can get is my number in sequence.
Animals
Had a dog-like animal cross the runway ahead of me during take-off. I think it was a Jackal - hear they have some living on the infield
Apron Ops
Problems don't end once you've landed. They're very good at pushing aircraft back so that your route to the gate is blocked. Simply pushing back to a different location or pulling the aircraft forward will solve a lot of these problems. Common sense is lacking. Ground frequency is almost as congested as approach.
All of the above combined with continually increasing numbers of aircraft and decreasing experience levels on the Flightdeck are a lethal combination IMHO.
The fact that nothing has happened yet means they have been extremely lucky but the holes are definitely lining up.
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most of the problems highlighted are very correct in their observation but certainly the interpretation should be judged from seeing the situation from the other side too.
Frequency Problem : poor vhf setup
heavy rush at SMC : a/c don't want to hold to Clearance Delivery even after knowing the fact they are 21st in departure sequence. take 2.5 min for every departure and 3 min for single rwy ops (simple mathematics)
EAT : once the arrival sequence is given in holding and the trffic is vectored by the radar in heavy traffic situation. the easiest way to calculate their landing time is to multiply seq no.
i) by 2.5 in case of simultaneous rwy to get time in min to touchdown
ii) by 3 in case of single rwy ops
then the EAT gets redundant
Frequency Problem : poor vhf setup
heavy rush at SMC : a/c don't want to hold to Clearance Delivery even after knowing the fact they are 21st in departure sequence. take 2.5 min for every departure and 3 min for single rwy ops (simple mathematics)
EAT : once the arrival sequence is given in holding and the trffic is vectored by the radar in heavy traffic situation. the easiest way to calculate their landing time is to multiply seq no.
i) by 2.5 in case of simultaneous rwy to get time in min to touchdown
ii) by 3 in case of single rwy ops
then the EAT gets redundant
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I believe in the last six month the former FAA admin Marion Blakey signed an agreement with India to provide some sort of atc training and open skies.
I hope for the sub-continent's sake that the FAA has absolutely Nothing to do with the ATC system in India, because if she does to India what they have done to atc in the US; good luck.
The only diff. between the FAA and the HMS Titanic is the Titanic had a band.
Blakey signed an agreement with India to provide some sort of atc training and open skies.I hope for the sub-continent's sake that the FAA has absolutely Nothing to do with the ATC system in India, because if she does to India what they have done to atc in the US; good luck.
The only diff. between the FAA and the HMS Titanic is the Titanic had a band.
Mumbai
Having operated frequently this time last year and early this year into Bom in a B763 Ive seen some really wierd controlling. They dont tend to use speed as a seperating factor, its headings frequent 360 turns at high level(370) then told to fly 220kts then free speed maintain orbit, then told tighten up the turn.................No Idea about radius. Have turned finals 27 at 46 nm then told to fly faster. How fast? FAST.
Theres also jackal type dogs on the airfield they live off scraps of food and peoples excrement that come across the fence to send their faxes!!
The tower controller screamed at us when we told him we needed a backtrack, we had told the ground controller. When we pointed this out he just said "well u didnt tell me and now u will delay arrival of aircraft 12 miles out"!!!!!!!
Fun Times!
Theres also jackal type dogs on the airfield they live off scraps of food and peoples excrement that come across the fence to send their faxes!!
The tower controller screamed at us when we told him we needed a backtrack, we had told the ground controller. When we pointed this out he just said "well u didnt tell me and now u will delay arrival of aircraft 12 miles out"!!!!!!!
Fun Times!
