FISO / A/G operator nomenclature
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FISO / A/G operator nomenclature
Many times in the past I have telephoned an aerodrome that I know has either a FISO or an a/g operator, to be greeted with the words "Blah Blah Air Traffic".
As neither of these esteemed positions are actually air traffic controllers, can anyone think of good names (clean please) that could be suggested for telephone use?
I know on RTF they use "Information" or "Radio", should they use those on telephone as well to avoid giving the impression that they do provide an ATC service?
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As neither of these esteemed positions are actually air traffic controllers, can anyone think of good names (clean please) that could be suggested for telephone use?
I know on RTF they use "Information" or "Radio", should they use those on telephone as well to avoid giving the impression that they do provide an ATC service?
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From the MATS Pt 1:
"Air Traffic Service. A generic term meaning variously, flight information service, alerting service, air traffic advisory service, air traffic control service (area control service, approach control service or aerodrome
"Air Traffic Service. A generic term meaning variously, flight information service, alerting service, air traffic advisory service, air traffic control service (area control service, approach control service or aerodrome
control service)."
So I would argue that "Air Traffic" is correct, certainly for the FISO.
So I would argue that "Air Traffic" is correct, certainly for the FISO.
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...is frowned upon by the regulators
There is an important issue here, in my opinion.
When I was instructing early students one of the first things I teach them is the status of the A/G (or AFISO) at the aerodrome concerned. I never refer to the "Tower" or "Air Traffic" in this instance. I use phraseology such as the "personnel who work in the building over there...."
It is important that pilots understand the "service" which they are in receipt of. Hardly a week goes by without a visiting aircraft calling up and asking "Am I clear to join straight in, right base etc?" (sometimes these pilots are professionally qualified) when the aerodrome concerned only has A/G.
On a humourous note one of our A/G operators has the surname "Tower" so perhaps he is entitled to answer the phone by saying "Tower"!
When I was instructing early students one of the first things I teach them is the status of the A/G (or AFISO) at the aerodrome concerned. I never refer to the "Tower" or "Air Traffic" in this instance. I use phraseology such as the "personnel who work in the building over there...."
It is important that pilots understand the "service" which they are in receipt of. Hardly a week goes by without a visiting aircraft calling up and asking "Am I clear to join straight in, right base etc?" (sometimes these pilots are professionally qualified) when the aerodrome concerned only has A/G.
On a humourous note one of our A/G operators has the surname "Tower" so perhaps he is entitled to answer the phone by saying "Tower"!
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When I was instructing early students one of the first things I teach them is the status of the A/G (or AFISO) at the aerodrome concerned. I never refer to the "Tower" or "Air Traffic" in this instance. I use phraseology such as the "personnel who work in the building over there...."
It is important that pilots understand the "service" which they are in receipt of.
It is important that pilots understand the "service" which they are in receipt of.
Please remember that a FIS is, de facto, an air traffic service, so why can't a FISO refer to himself as providing such?
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The words "Air Traffic" have been used to answer the phone from such a facility since Pontius was a pilot. It's no big deal and infers nothing about the provision of any particular type of service. Of course, one might ask why this thread is in the Air Traffic Control Issues forum?
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I never refer to the "Tower" or "Air Traffic" in this instance. I use phraseology such as the "personnel who work in the building over there...."
It should be remembered that there are some GA aerodromes in the UK where ATC is provided for most times but where FIS is provided outside the hours of ATC, for example at weekends. It's therefore, impossible to make any hard and fast rule concerning telephone ident: the key is the R/T ident used and properly pre-briefing yourself via the AIP, Pooleys, Bottlang, etc., before setting out.
The other point is that as far as starting and taxiing aircraft (including air taxiing helis) are concerned there's no difference in the actual service delivered between ATC and FIS; and even ATC - when flying in Class G airspace outside the ATZ - isn't mandatory = potential student pilot confusion!
HD
Indeed - and one might add that the words "air traffic" have been used entirely wrongly. "Air traffic" is a specific term with an appropriate definition. If "air traffic services" is what is meant, then that is what should be stated. Unfortunately, many people will infer "air traffic control " from the sloppy, inaccurate use of "air traffic" in these circumstances.
Indeed - and one might add that the words "air traffic" have been used entirely wrongly. "Air traffic" is a specific term with an appropriate definition. If "air traffic services" is what is meant, then that is what should be stated. Unfortunately, many people will infer "air traffic control " from the sloppy, inaccurate use of "air traffic" in these circumstances.
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It is important that pilots understand the "service" which they are in receipt of. Hardly a week goes by without a visiting aircraft calling up and asking "Am I clear to join straight in, right base etc?" (sometimes these pilots are professionally qualified) when the aerodrome concerned only has A/G.
I couldn't agree more. Its the blurring and non adherence to the rules by all parties that makes it confusing for them.
For example, at the field I operate from, the FISO service is always very aimiable, but it could sound confusing when a FISO says such things as "report zzzz VRP" or "report final" Not clearances per se, but easily mis-construed as ATC instructions, when, infact the FISO has no jurisdiction on traffic in the air...
Perhaps a re-wording to "advise you report final" or "advise you report downwind" would be better? (After all, its a sad state of affairs that the FISO feels compelled to say this because lets face it, some people can't get their circuit calls right in the first place!)
Chevvron
What exactly "entitles" an ATSU to use a misleading, irritating, slang and plain daft abbreviation?
Def. - Air Traffic - "All aircraft in flight or operating on the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome". (ICAO)
What exactly "entitles" an ATSU to use a misleading, irritating, slang and plain daft abbreviation?
Def. - Air Traffic - "All aircraft in flight or operating on the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome". (ICAO)
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FISO / A/G operator nomenclature
I must agree with FINALSs19 if the phraseoloy for FISO was changed to "advise final" "advise downwind" it would be a constant reminder to pilots that they were receiving a FISO service. That having been said CAP413 phraseology for Helicopters requires ATCO's phraseology for Heli's not landing on a licenced part of the aerodrome to be given "Land at your discretion" so perhaps from a pilots point of view it can all be a bit confusing. A/G operators are instructed not to use "Land at your discretion" as that is FISO talk. Discuss is it really that confusing ?
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Folks
CAP 410 MFIS Manual and CAP 413
REPORT = Pass requested information.
REQUEST = I should like to know ... or I wish to obtain ...
ADVISE does not appear in the lexicon of Words and Phrases
Obviously, for a FISO to provide a flight information service he needs to know where the aircraft are as do other aircraft, the request to 'report' a position is the circuit does not/should not imply an air traffic control service is being provided. We already have the phraseology no need to invent something else. We all agree the important thing is for the pilot to understand the service he is being provided with and that of course is given in the prefix e.g 'xyz aerodrome INFORMATION' which the FISO must always use.
CAP 410 MFIS Manual and CAP 413
REPORT = Pass requested information.
REQUEST = I should like to know ... or I wish to obtain ...
ADVISE does not appear in the lexicon of Words and Phrases
Obviously, for a FISO to provide a flight information service he needs to know where the aircraft are as do other aircraft, the request to 'report' a position is the circuit does not/should not imply an air traffic control service is being provided. We already have the phraseology no need to invent something else. We all agree the important thing is for the pilot to understand the service he is being provided with and that of course is given in the prefix e.g 'xyz aerodrome INFORMATION' which the FISO must always use.
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Never mind the telephone.
Here are some of the rules for operating at Popham.....an unlicensed grass aerodrome with Air/Ground Radio service;
http://www.popham-airfield.co.uk/Procedures.htm
As this probably demonstrates, often it is not the people who actually answer the telephone, it is the people running the organisation who put out such "rules" which basically instruct the A/G Radio operators to go beyond what they can legally do.
Regards,
DFC
Here are some of the rules for operating at Popham.....an unlicensed grass aerodrome with Air/Ground Radio service;
The direction of take off and landing must be as indicated by the "T" displayed in the signal square or as directed by ATC.
Aircraft are required to taxi as directed by ATC and all aircraft are required to turn left at end of landing run unless otherwise directed by ATC. In winter when there are boggy conditions ATC will usually ask you to exit left and return to the parking area via the southern taxi way (beside the road).
Aerobatic flying is not permitted over or near to the airfield unless specifically monitored by ATC.
Aircraft should not be parked in front of hangars or clubhouse or in any position which might inconvenience the view from ATC
If wind conditions suggest that it would be safer to use one of our alternative landing strip (03/21), permission should be granted by ATC.
Aircraft are required to taxi as directed by ATC and all aircraft are required to turn left at end of landing run unless otherwise directed by ATC. In winter when there are boggy conditions ATC will usually ask you to exit left and return to the parking area via the southern taxi way (beside the road).
Aerobatic flying is not permitted over or near to the airfield unless specifically monitored by ATC.
Aircraft should not be parked in front of hangars or clubhouse or in any position which might inconvenience the view from ATC
If wind conditions suggest that it would be safer to use one of our alternative landing strip (03/21), permission should be granted by ATC.
As this probably demonstrates, often it is not the people who actually answer the telephone, it is the people running the organisation who put out such "rules" which basically instruct the A/G Radio operators to go beyond what they can legally do.
Regards,
DFC
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Whether Tower, Information or Radio, they're all Air Traffic Service Units or ATSU's, thus entitled to use the abbreviation 'Air Traffic'.
The Shannon Radio Service (Callsign Shanwick Radio) is a Radio Service. The Air Traffic Serice element is located in Prestwick.
That is the best example of Air/Ground Radio service who never do anything to make people think that they provice any form of Air Traffic Service.
Make a telephone call to Ballygireen. Will they answer with "Air Traffic"?
Regards,
DFC
