cockpit checks completed
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cockpit checks completed
What do you mean when during a PAR you say report "cockpit checks completed"?
I'm civilian and few days ago i porformed a PAR in Northolt...i assumed it was related to the gear position but i'm not very sure about that...
I'm civilian and few days ago i porformed a PAR in Northolt...i assumed it was related to the gear position but i'm not very sure about that...
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If I remember correctly - (it's been a while since I've done mil controlling), we were supposed to ask "check gear down, acknowledge"... however if we knew the aircraft did not have retractable undercarriage, we may have used the phrase you heard.... it saves getting the sarcastic reply "gear down and welded"
The phrase "cockpit checks completed" does ring a bell... though the above may be slightly wrong reason behind it's use...
The phrase "cockpit checks completed" does ring a bell... though the above may be slightly wrong reason behind it's use...
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During that PAR, approaching four miles inbound, the controller said to me " check gear down and locked, aknowledge"...that's why it sounded strange to me...did you ask two times for the same checks?
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Again a civvy but who controlled Military aircraft positioning for the initial approach for the PAR. We would tell the aircraft when approximately 15 - 20 miles from touchdown
" Cockpit checks report complete"
We would then at some point either get three greens or cockpit check complete.
If relayed on our frequency prior to transfer to the PAR controller we would pass that in the handover call.
" Cockpit checks report complete"
We would then at some point either get three greens or cockpit check complete.
If relayed on our frequency prior to transfer to the PAR controller we would pass that in the handover call.
In another life ... I remember this phrase - it was usually said to the pilot before he was passed to the PAR (Talkdown) controller. It served as a reminder for the pilot and ensured, hopefully, a period of relative quiet in which the pilot could carry out his checks without incessant instructions/questions (nagging) from ATC.
"Cockpit Checks, Report Complete."
Hi L'Argonauta,
It's just a prompt for you to conduct your cockpit checks. ATC will try not to talk to you or give any further instructions until you report "Checks complete". Additionally, a gear check is also a mandatory requirement prior to landing clearance for aircraft with retractable undercarriage. These 2 checks as well as a QFE/QNH readback prior to descending on the PAR glidepath are part of the UK military ATC procedures.
There is currently a move afoot to standardise mil and civ phraseology in the UK to CAP413 standard, but don't hold your breath
Cheers,
LXGB
It's just a prompt for you to conduct your cockpit checks. ATC will try not to talk to you or give any further instructions until you report "Checks complete". Additionally, a gear check is also a mandatory requirement prior to landing clearance for aircraft with retractable undercarriage. These 2 checks as well as a QFE/QNH readback prior to descending on the PAR glidepath are part of the UK military ATC procedures.
There is currently a move afoot to standardise mil and civ phraseology in the UK to CAP413 standard, but don't hold your breath
Cheers,
LXGB
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LXGB is correct, so once your checks are complete, let us know.
Sometimes we can appear to be pedantic with the gear check with regards to what you say back to us, but please remember that the gear check is a mandatory safety check that the PAR or SRA controller must obtain. Even if you tell the director you're "gear down" the Talkdown ATCO must be told this (for the tapes)
Also just for your info the UK mil ATCO's can't accept the phrase "finals with the gear".
When we say "x miles, check gear acknowledge" only the phrase "Gear Down" or in the case of WU "Three Greens" can be accepted. Until you confirm your gear is down and locked we cannot obtain a clearance to use the runway, and that must be done and passed on to you by 2 miles or you'll get "C/S Break off the approach, execute missed approach procedure, acknowledge"
I hope that this helps
Sometimes we can appear to be pedantic with the gear check with regards to what you say back to us, but please remember that the gear check is a mandatory safety check that the PAR or SRA controller must obtain. Even if you tell the director you're "gear down" the Talkdown ATCO must be told this (for the tapes)
Also just for your info the UK mil ATCO's can't accept the phrase "finals with the gear".
When we say "x miles, check gear acknowledge" only the phrase "Gear Down" or in the case of WU "Three Greens" can be accepted. Until you confirm your gear is down and locked we cannot obtain a clearance to use the runway, and that must be done and passed on to you by 2 miles or you'll get "C/S Break off the approach, execute missed approach procedure, acknowledge"I hope that this helps
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MM but what checks?
the confusion arrives because on civi types there are usually 2 triggers for checks. 1) the change to QFE/QNH triggers approach checks
2) some selection of flap after gear is down is the landing.
So usually we are between checks.
The other question which gets asked which takes a bit of getting used to is "are you familular" if you say yes they leave you alone if you say no you get 2 mins of what underware the satco as on today, the runway length, if the burger van at the end of the runway is working etc all said at break neck speed. If you have the plates infront of you just say yes.
What can we expect from the van and what actions are we expected to perform if it fires a red burger at you?
There are quite a few "what the hell are they are on about" differences while working with MIL controllers for civi's. The RT phraseology is just a small part. The whole mind set is very slightly different which takes a bit of getting used to. They have different limits to the civi controllers which can be a bit concerning when a 3 ship typhoon goes over you 500ft above.
In fact if they could be bothered producing a safety sense booklet on the differences it would make life alot easier for all concerned.
(If you do please have where the aircraft is on initials)
BTW nothing in this post is meant to be slagging the mil controllers off. Its just different, sometimes you feel over controlled sometimes under controlled.
And all the time you have to remind yourself that your SA is actually quite low due to the UHF/VHF split so you don't have the same picture as you would at a civi field.
I wouldn't say I am an expert operating into mil fields as a civi but I can manage to not be asked any extra questions on the check in with approach and talkdown which was learned by trial and error and multiple RT calls.
the confusion arrives because on civi types there are usually 2 triggers for checks. 1) the change to QFE/QNH triggers approach checks
2) some selection of flap after gear is down is the landing.
So usually we are between checks.
The other question which gets asked which takes a bit of getting used to is "are you familular" if you say yes they leave you alone if you say no you get 2 mins of what underware the satco as on today, the runway length, if the burger van at the end of the runway is working etc all said at break neck speed. If you have the plates infront of you just say yes.
What can we expect from the van and what actions are we expected to perform if it fires a red burger at you?
There are quite a few "what the hell are they are on about" differences while working with MIL controllers for civi's. The RT phraseology is just a small part. The whole mind set is very slightly different which takes a bit of getting used to. They have different limits to the civi controllers which can be a bit concerning when a 3 ship typhoon goes over you 500ft above.
In fact if they could be bothered producing a safety sense booklet on the differences it would make life alot easier for all concerned.
(If you do please have where the aircraft is on initials)
BTW nothing in this post is meant to be slagging the mil controllers off. Its just different, sometimes you feel over controlled sometimes under controlled.
And all the time you have to remind yourself that your SA is actually quite low due to the UHF/VHF split so you don't have the same picture as you would at a civi field.
I wouldn't say I am an expert operating into mil fields as a civi but I can manage to not be asked any extra questions on the check in with approach and talkdown which was learned by trial and error and multiple RT calls.
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Every Little Helps!
The precise checklist varies from type to type. What you have to remember is that the mil airfield is prepared for the worst-case scenario, ie; we're on a war footing, the a/c is struggling back shot to pieces & the pilot is wounded.
The "cockpit checks" call is a prompt to the pilot. Very often they may already be done. If you're happy with your checks at that point just report "checks complete". If you're doing something at that time just say "wilco" and get back when you're ready.
I have to say when I'm controlling a (small) civvy I tend to tailor what I say. To get it into their language I often use "final approach checks; report complete".
Another possible cause for the confusion with this is that when vectoring the mil don't give the position reports you would get from a civvy unit, ie "turn left heading xxx; downwind" so potentially the pilot hasn't any idea of his position relative to the intercept, and thus no cue for starting the checks.
ap
PS tesco - give your nearest mil base a ring & arrange a visit. They'll be pleased to see you & more so if you're armed with biscuits
Make sure it's a radar unit obviously. If you need a number PM me.
Every little helps!
The "cockpit checks" call is a prompt to the pilot. Very often they may already be done. If you're happy with your checks at that point just report "checks complete". If you're doing something at that time just say "wilco" and get back when you're ready.
I have to say when I'm controlling a (small) civvy I tend to tailor what I say. To get it into their language I often use "final approach checks; report complete".
Another possible cause for the confusion with this is that when vectoring the mil don't give the position reports you would get from a civvy unit, ie "turn left heading xxx; downwind" so potentially the pilot hasn't any idea of his position relative to the intercept, and thus no cue for starting the checks.
ap
PS tesco - give your nearest mil base a ring & arrange a visit. They'll be pleased to see you & more so if you're armed with biscuits
Make sure it's a radar unit obviously. If you need a number PM me.Every little helps!
Last edited by aluminium persuader; 19th Oct 2007 at 13:12. Reason: Post script
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I have visited a couple of mil towers and also met the mil guys at scottish.
Unfortunatly they seemed to suffer from the same problems as none nats fields. As the local differences are quite marked. eg Valley versus Marham.
Its not a problem these days for me. After a very steep learning curve and the help of a QFI at valley I think I have my head around most of it. Although the IFR departure out of Valley to Manchester handover sometimes leads to lots of head scratching and has potential for confusion, the regular crews are proberly better at it than me.
It doesn't help when you ask mil pilots about the procedures they start the alpha male bravo ****e and tell you just to humour mil ATC and tell them what they want to keep them happy.
Still think a safety sense would be a good idea. I would be game to help with its production and I can think of a few other people who would be as well.
And BTW AP yet again the ATCO's that drive tin as well as push it are the centers of common sense when it comes to controlling aircraft.
Unfortunatly they seemed to suffer from the same problems as none nats fields. As the local differences are quite marked. eg Valley versus Marham.
Its not a problem these days for me. After a very steep learning curve and the help of a QFI at valley I think I have my head around most of it. Although the IFR departure out of Valley to Manchester handover sometimes leads to lots of head scratching and has potential for confusion, the regular crews are proberly better at it than me.
It doesn't help when you ask mil pilots about the procedures they start the alpha male bravo ****e and tell you just to humour mil ATC and tell them what they want to keep them happy.
Still think a safety sense would be a good idea. I would be game to help with its production and I can think of a few other people who would be as well.
And BTW AP yet again the ATCO's that drive tin as well as push it are the centers of common sense when it comes to controlling aircraft.
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TESCOAPP
Have a look at the CAA website they HAVE been bothered and you can download "Safety Sense No26 (IIRC)"... i.e. everything you ever wanted to know when flying into a UK Mil a/f and were afraid to ask. (see link)
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1476
Initials: varies a bit from place to place: traditionally it places the joining fast-jet around about 3-5 from the cct, either on centre-line but more typically offset on the deadside... 500' above cct height, so the pilot(s) can run in fast, sight the other circuit a/c, judge his/her break into the circuit and position in turn for landing. Some a/fs have low initials, where the a/c approaches below cct height so other a/c are more visible against the sky, in which case the pilot will pull up on the break to cct height.
In fact if they could be bothered producing a safety sense booklet on the differences it would make life alot easier for all concerned.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1476
Initials: varies a bit from place to place: traditionally it places the joining fast-jet around about 3-5 from the cct, either on centre-line but more typically offset on the deadside... 500' above cct height, so the pilot(s) can run in fast, sight the other circuit a/c, judge his/her break into the circuit and position in turn for landing. Some a/fs have low initials, where the a/c approaches below cct height so other a/c are more visible against the sky, in which case the pilot will pull up on the break to cct height.
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aluminium persuader says it all regarding the checks.
But... as much as I would love to tailor my phraseology for the person I am addressig on the RT, my LEO & SATCO would have a dim view of it and probably invite me for a interview without coffee.
To expand on this we mean, are you familiar with the airfield - as published. This is because in the past we have had people turn up and do all sorts of weird and wacky things.
The runway caravan (where established) conducts last look checks on all departing aircraft. So he/she is looking for Leaks/blans/plugs/open panels or doors (you'd be supprised) anything that looks wrong. you mainly find them at training or the sharp & pointy stations. For aircraft on approach they again act as a last look checker - making sure that the gear appears in the right position.
If you see the caravan firing red flare then your action (as a pilot) is to break off the approach and go-around. It superseeds all other ATC instructions. It may be that he/she has noticed that one of your wheels looks out of place, or indeed they are not down (i've fired at a 737 without gear before!). Or it may be because there is an obstruction on the rwy. The same applies to you if you are lined up - red means do not take off as something is/appears wrong.
On the other hand, if it fires a green at you, it means "Cleared to land" or "Clear take off"
We do, and sometimes it can be confusing. If you are not sure about something ask, if it's too busy on the RT to do so (and it's not an immediate flight safety issue) then when you land call the controller concerned, they will be more than happy to let you know what they've done and why. You mentioned that we can take 500' seperation between aircraft under our control (subject to special criteria being met), but the biggest thing with that is we must have your agreement before doing it - if you're not happy then please say no.
I don't want to appear as if i'm being a t*t, I honestly hope what I've written is of some use.
Please contact your nearest Mil ATC unit and arrange a visit. It works both ways, you see what we do things the way we do, and also we learn why you do/want to do things the way you do.
But... as much as I would love to tailor my phraseology for the person I am addressig on the RT, my LEO & SATCO would have a dim view of it and probably invite me for a interview without coffee.
The other question which gets asked which takes a bit of getting used to is "are you familular"
What can we expect from the van and what actions are we expected to perform if it fires a red burger at you?
If you see the caravan firing red flare then your action (as a pilot) is to break off the approach and go-around. It superseeds all other ATC instructions. It may be that he/she has noticed that one of your wheels looks out of place, or indeed they are not down (i've fired at a 737 without gear before!). Or it may be because there is an obstruction on the rwy. The same applies to you if you are lined up - red means do not take off as something is/appears wrong.
On the other hand, if it fires a green at you, it means "Cleared to land" or "Clear take off"
There are quite a few "what the hell are they are on about" ..... They have different limits to the civi controllers
I don't want to appear as if i'm being a t*t, I honestly hope what I've written is of some use.
Please contact your nearest Mil ATC unit and arrange a visit. It works both ways, you see what we do things the way we do, and also we learn why you do/want to do things the way you do.
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Can I ask for a "no compass, no gyro" approach & PAR next time please??
A speechless approach with a further emergency might be quite good fun in the London TMA (no, that's not an invitation to do one!) and a totally different proposition altogether ... unfortunately any civilian controllers who have no mil experience will more than likely disregard carrier wave only transmissions, and certainly won't know how to establish the nature of your second emergency when you can't actually talk on RT (unless they hit it lucky when listing everything they can think of... a bee in the cockpit (an old Beefer favourite) is very hard to ascertain
)
Best further emergency I heard was when we couldn't figure out what it was after running out of HEFOE questions, and the pilot phoned about 15 min after landing to explain he had been bursting for a sh1t and had we not got him down quickly, he'd have had to be scooped out of the cockpit (Hunter)!
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I think that as a pilot carrying out an SRA (never done a PAR as not mil) we are over controlled and treat like idiots. "check wheels" of course I will part of landing checks, "check minimum descent altitude" of course I will and already done so before start of approach. Next time I might ask the controller to check that he/she has the correct radar map displayed and it is correctly aligned or that the qnh is correct and that the barometer has been checked by the met office. I am never asked for checks when carrying out a Cat 3 autoland in far worse conditions. This is the CAA being far too over cautious just like the vortex spacings, in the UK light behind heavy 8 miles, rest of the world it is 6. The UK have to seriously look at their over cautious rules if they want to work within the DMEAN and CDM projects within Eurocontrol.
Rant over, just read this at the wrong time and hacked off after last night.
Rant over, just read this at the wrong time and hacked off after last night.
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Best further emergency I heard was when we couldn't figure out what it was after running out of HEFOE questions, and the pilot phoned about 15 min after landing to explain he had been bursting for a sh1t and had we not got him down quickly, he'd have had to be scooped out of the cockpit (Hunter)!
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Nuggett Three Eight?
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Thanks for the link to the safety sense.
And all the other explanations of whats going on. No MM your posts have been very helpful.
As a note having done quite a few now in anger down to mins and also in CAVOK for controller currency the voice and the tone of the talkdown makes a huge difference to the cockpit load.
And all the other explanations of whats going on. No MM your posts have been very helpful.
As a note having done quite a few now in anger down to mins and also in CAVOK for controller currency the voice and the tone of the talkdown makes a huge difference to the cockpit load.
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Ils 119.5
you're right about the over precautious check calls whilst performing PAR approaches but remember, they're designed for Mil fast jet. The work load in a Harrier cockpit can be extremly high and checks such as "gear" have saved more than one ac. DH is asked because it varies between ac, cockpit checks are a form of speed control in the radar pattern e.g. early checks if you're catching the one ahead; Mil controllers can't specify speeds to fly in the RTC.