Probably an Airlaw Question.
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Probably an Airlaw Question.
Not sure if this is the right place to post. A bit theorectical because I'm sure it wouldn't apply to a major airport but figured the ATC area would be the best place to ask.
If as a pilot you where waiting at the holding point for another aircraft to land, and you noticed something wrong with the landing aircraft that they might not have realised, due to false indications or the tower can't see clearly ( Ie possible landing gear not down fully with 3 greens etc). Would you call the tower on frequency to advise them as such? Also what if its on short final when you notice and you know by the time its been relayed to the tower and back to the landing aircraft its too late.
I know this is all what if's but wondered if there has been or there is a proceedure.
Please excuse my ignorance if I should know better, I did try and have a look through my Airlaw manuals once the dust had been removed but couldn't find anything specific on this.
Thank you for help.
If as a pilot you where waiting at the holding point for another aircraft to land, and you noticed something wrong with the landing aircraft that they might not have realised, due to false indications or the tower can't see clearly ( Ie possible landing gear not down fully with 3 greens etc). Would you call the tower on frequency to advise them as such? Also what if its on short final when you notice and you know by the time its been relayed to the tower and back to the landing aircraft its too late.
I know this is all what if's but wondered if there has been or there is a proceedure.
Please excuse my ignorance if I should know better, I did try and have a look through my Airlaw manuals once the dust had been removed but couldn't find anything specific on this.
Thank you for help.
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Not being a legal expert but thinking purely from a duty of care perspective, I would expect that you would jump straight on the frequency and identify yourself as a pilot at the holding point and ask them if they are aware that all is not as it should be with their aircraft. The PIC can then decide whether he will go around and possibly fly passed the tower so as to confirm your suspicions.
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I guess if you were at the hold and he was landing you would both be on Tower and landing pilot would hear your message to Tower and would make his own decision.
If you think you may be able to prevent an accident don't worry about the legals,just sing out.
MM
If you think you may be able to prevent an accident don't worry about the legals,just sing out.
MM
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Thats pretty much what I was thinking, although what got me thinking is what you would say. A go around instruction from ATC is very direct and the pilots are aware that on an approach there is a possibilty of such and so could/would expect it anyway and will initiate very succinctly. Where as a blind call from another aircraft, indentifying its self and making known the problem might not have the same impact and result in a delayed reaction.
And modelman you say "singout", which I agree with , but if the situation was critical ( moments before touchdown )would it be concievable for the pilot at the holding point to make a blind "go around" call if it potentially save the day?!
And modelman you say "singout", which I agree with , but if the situation was critical ( moments before touchdown )would it be concievable for the pilot at the holding point to make a blind "go around" call if it potentially save the day?!
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My experience is pilots are completely and profoundly deaf to what is going on around them on the radio unless specifically addressed by callsign, and sometimes even then.
I also notice when I am flying if concentrating on intercepting a heading, figgering a heading, intercepting a level, interpreting what the instructor means when he says "Something Bad Is About To Happen", etc. etc. that I can be profoundly deaf also.
"Aircraft on final runway 27 ArgleBargle, ABC, your nosewheel is up." Will punch through the above better than, "Tower, TOWER, ABC here, that aeroplane has its nosewheel up."
I also notice when I am flying if concentrating on intercepting a heading, figgering a heading, intercepting a level, interpreting what the instructor means when he says "Something Bad Is About To Happen", etc. etc. that I can be profoundly deaf also.
"Aircraft on final runway 27 ArgleBargle, ABC, your nosewheel is up." Will punch through the above better than, "Tower, TOWER, ABC here, that aeroplane has its nosewheel up."
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I've actually seen this (albeit over 20 years ago now). Guy at the hold-short line keys the mic and yells "NO GEAR! Airplane short final no gear!" Controller instantly sends him around, but by then the arrival was already climbing after hearing the other pilot's call. Bob/Uncle/Sorted. Gotta love the team approach.
As far as the legal aspect (in the US anyway), my take would be:
1. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem but says nothing---morally reprehensible but legally not a problem;
2. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem and yells "no gear!"---morally correct, probably effective, and legally not a problem; but,
3. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem and says "King Air short final go around"---the good news is that you may prevent the belly landing. Bad news is that you've just issued an ATC instruction at a controlled airport. You may come away unscathed, but you'll spend some time answering questions before it's over. On the other hand, I've heard pilots at uncontrolled airports say "go around" to other pilots when observing an unsafe condition. That didn't really bother me in that everybody knew it was uncontrolled...
Dave
As far as the legal aspect (in the US anyway), my take would be:
1. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem but says nothing---morally reprehensible but legally not a problem;
2. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem and yells "no gear!"---morally correct, probably effective, and legally not a problem; but,
3. Guy at the hold short line sees the problem and says "King Air short final go around"---the good news is that you may prevent the belly landing. Bad news is that you've just issued an ATC instruction at a controlled airport. You may come away unscathed, but you'll spend some time answering questions before it's over. On the other hand, I've heard pilots at uncontrolled airports say "go around" to other pilots when observing an unsafe condition. That didn't really bother me in that everybody knew it was uncontrolled...
Dave
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We actually get various ground personnell at Manch calling to say "there is an open panel, on the a/c etc".....Long may it continue 
watp,iktch
watp,iktch
Last edited by chiglet; 12th Oct 2007 at 20:20. Reason: clarity, through a glass.......darkly
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Did that years ago at Biggin Hill. I was at the holding point in a C152 and the guy about to flare had no gear so I instructed him to overshoot and then apologised to the tower. The pilot (who was based at BH) didn't even say thanks. 
