What's Happening at Airways NZ??
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So sorry to see that you've given up SayAgainSally!
There was so much more that you could have added about dear old Aunty Airways....
I mean we have just finished a major reorganisation, closing down Auckland and Ohakea Centres uprooting all those controllers and moving them down to the "frozen wastelands" of Christchurch. The reason given was that Aunty Airways owned the buildings in Christchurch whereas at the other locations they were leased....... Some poor Ohakea
had not even finished unpacking when some Head Office boffin decided to sell all the Christchurch buildings and lease them back...... I'm sure a number of Head Office Managers will be patting themselves on the back right now and looking forward to the bonuses that selling the buildings will bring!
Since the contract failed to ratify Pacific Blue has announced that it is starting domestic operations in NZ initially with 3 B738 flying between Auckland, Wellington & Christchurch. Today Air Nelson (part of ANZ) announced that it is getting extra Dash 8's to meet growing demand (from 17 up to 23). Yesterday Jetstar confirmed that intends to enter the NZ domestic market soon. So much extra revenue for dear old Aunty Airways! Hopefully someone in NZALPA will wake up soon and try to get us a decent pay rise before we loose yet more controllers!
There was so much more that you could have added about dear old Aunty Airways....
I mean we have just finished a major reorganisation, closing down Auckland and Ohakea Centres uprooting all those controllers and moving them down to the "frozen wastelands" of Christchurch. The reason given was that Aunty Airways owned the buildings in Christchurch whereas at the other locations they were leased....... Some poor Ohakea
had not even finished unpacking when some Head Office boffin decided to sell all the Christchurch buildings and lease them back...... I'm sure a number of Head Office Managers will be patting themselves on the back right now and looking forward to the bonuses that selling the buildings will bring!Since the contract failed to ratify Pacific Blue has announced that it is starting domestic operations in NZ initially with 3 B738 flying between Auckland, Wellington & Christchurch. Today Air Nelson (part of ANZ) announced that it is getting extra Dash 8's to meet growing demand (from 17 up to 23). Yesterday Jetstar confirmed that intends to enter the NZ domestic market soon. So much extra revenue for dear old Aunty Airways! Hopefully someone in NZALPA will wake up soon and try to get us a decent pay rise before we loose yet more controllers!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: 20deg N, 35deg C
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone enlighten me as to who bought the buildings? What advantage is it to Airways to sell them in the first place apart from tax issues, short term improvement to the balance sheet?
I do take issue with the comments about ALPA having to do better with negotiations. The negotiators past and present I know very well and understand the pressures they face working (unpaid and often criticised) on the MEMBERSHIP's behalf. It p!sses me off reading stuff about 'ALPA needing to wake up' as I have an intimate knowledge of the demands the process places on these guys and their families.... Perhaps it's time you critics stand up and get involved instead of slagging off. As I understand it YOUR rep's did negotiate a deal that they felt was the best they could get for YOU, if it's not acceptable to the membership then it's time to raise the stakes and talk the language that Airways understand ie. threaten the bottom line of the balance sheet as well as the companies reputation as a 'world leader'. But does the membership have the guts to raise the stakes and hit the company with 2 weeks notice of industrial action? If you don't have the stomach for that course of action then you've 2 choices... accept the deal or vote with your feet.
TP
I do take issue with the comments about ALPA having to do better with negotiations. The negotiators past and present I know very well and understand the pressures they face working (unpaid and often criticised) on the MEMBERSHIP's behalf. It p!sses me off reading stuff about 'ALPA needing to wake up' as I have an intimate knowledge of the demands the process places on these guys and their families.... Perhaps it's time you critics stand up and get involved instead of slagging off. As I understand it YOUR rep's did negotiate a deal that they felt was the best they could get for YOU, if it's not acceptable to the membership then it's time to raise the stakes and talk the language that Airways understand ie. threaten the bottom line of the balance sheet as well as the companies reputation as a 'world leader'. But does the membership have the guts to raise the stakes and hit the company with 2 weeks notice of industrial action? If you don't have the stomach for that course of action then you've 2 choices... accept the deal or vote with your feet.
TP
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: 20deg N, 35deg C
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gudday TC
Nice to hear ya buddy! The sand is... well, sandy
More importantly the water is clear and inviting and the beers cold and fizzy!
How's winterless Q'land treating you? Given your question are you going to look at hopping the Tassy and start supporting the mighty AB's and Crusaders???
Nice to hear ya buddy! The sand is... well, sandy
More importantly the water is clear and inviting and the beers cold and fizzy!How's winterless Q'land treating you? Given your question are you going to look at hopping the Tassy and start supporting the mighty AB's and Crusaders???
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tin Pusher ........... Thanks for the lecture on negotiating. I also know the negotiators well and have in the past done said job myself. I guess given your location you are slightly further away from the action and as such have not caught up with the dark mood in the frozen wastelands.
As to the builings they were bought by Abacas Property Trust (Sydney based) for $18.5 M. The lease is for an initial 12 years with rights of renewal.....Not sure of what the lease costs are or how long we stay here. I'm sure Aunty Airways will find a clever way of hiding the money.......
As to the builings they were bought by Abacas Property Trust (Sydney based) for $18.5 M. The lease is for an initial 12 years with rights of renewal.....Not sure of what the lease costs are or how long we stay here. I'm sure Aunty Airways will find a clever way of hiding the money.......
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All over the place
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tinny
Given your question are you going to look at hopping the Tassy and start supporting the mighty AB's and Crusaders???
No bluddy way bro..just curious. ANSA on the middle east thread posted the Abu Dhabi income in Kiwi terms...
That leaves 408,000 dh's a year in your hand to buy food, beer and toys with.
That is 34,000 dh's a month or 11,000 AUDs to the tall, tanned, strong amongst us, 4,500 GBPs to the pale, sickly, bad toothed amongst us, 6,600 EURs to the naked, dope smokers amongst us and 13,000 NZDs for the ....well those that have these in their bedroom
That is 34,000 dh's a month or 11,000 AUDs to the tall, tanned, strong amongst us, 4,500 GBPs to the pale, sickly, bad toothed amongst us, 6,600 EURs to the naked, dope smokers amongst us and 13,000 NZDs for the ....well those that have these in their bedroom
PS am glad the beer is cold (what brand, not Speights?)
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: 20deg N, 35deg C
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotty,
My comments weren't intended as a lecture and if I came across as patronising then I apologise. I imagine the feeling in the work place is dark and bitter, but how do you improve the offer when the opposition has given all they're going to give? You can 'negotiate' till the cows come home but unless the company is prepared to meet your terms then any negotiated settlement is likely to fall short of your expectations. In the meantime the company has any potential pay increase in their bank and unless they're going to agree to back paying your increase, you lose. In my opinion the only tool you have as a group is to withdraw your goodwill and/or labour.
and from Sally
It is unfair to blame ALPA and/or the negotiators for the result. During past restructurings with the Aucland and Ohakea moves I heard alot of criticism from those affected that 'ALPA' should have prevented same restructuring and from some quarters, that the union had 'sold out' the members. As if the union had the right or power to prevent this. Instead the best was made of a bad situation, the redundancy agreement (negotiated by ALPA) came into force and those wiling to make the move or head south on secondment (in my opinion) did very well out of it due to the hard work of the ALPA rep's.
Not enough is the simple answer TC hence I voted with my feet and left, as have a number of others in recent times. While there's much debate about ME salaries at least it appears that market forces are beginning to come into play here, something which Airways also need to accept (but won't).
My comments weren't intended as a lecture and if I came across as patronising then I apologise. I imagine the feeling in the work place is dark and bitter, but how do you improve the offer when the opposition has given all they're going to give? You can 'negotiate' till the cows come home but unless the company is prepared to meet your terms then any negotiated settlement is likely to fall short of your expectations. In the meantime the company has any potential pay increase in their bank and unless they're going to agree to back paying your increase, you lose. In my opinion the only tool you have as a group is to withdraw your goodwill and/or labour.
Hopefully someone in NZALPA will wake up soon and try to get us a decent pay rise before we loose yet more controllers
The message to NZALPA is clear, get back in there and negotiate until you get something the troops will accept, and lets be clear here, this is not all about industral action, it's about negotiation.
OK how much did YOU make in your last year in WN? (The American, Canuck, Aussie and pommie pay is found on the net, but the NZALPA site deosn't seem to have this info).
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Mr Track Coastal
The Current Kiwi payrates are as follows....
Enroute $53633 to $77824 Base pay on which you can add around another 28% for penal rates etc. General offers to import controllers are around $75k plus penal rates......
Terminal $61295 to $88942 Base pay plus around 30% for penal time dependant upon which sector you are appointed to.
Most direct entry controllers (foreign hires) are employed on the Enroute sector initally, promotion through to a Terminal sector would take at least 3 years. NZ tax rates are around 33% for the first $60k increasing to 39% with a GST (sales tax) on just about everthing of 12.5%. Hope that helps you!
And for my old friend Tin Pusher.....I guess my gripe is more about the conduct of the negotiations rather than the results..........
The Current Kiwi payrates are as follows....
Enroute $53633 to $77824 Base pay on which you can add around another 28% for penal rates etc. General offers to import controllers are around $75k plus penal rates......
Terminal $61295 to $88942 Base pay plus around 30% for penal time dependant upon which sector you are appointed to.
Most direct entry controllers (foreign hires) are employed on the Enroute sector initally, promotion through to a Terminal sector would take at least 3 years. NZ tax rates are around 33% for the first $60k increasing to 39% with a GST (sales tax) on just about everthing of 12.5%. Hope that helps you!
And for my old friend Tin Pusher.....I guess my gripe is more about the conduct of the negotiations rather than the results..........
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All over the place
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm
You mob need to get +20% straight up and maybe 10%pa for a couple of years. The pay west of the ditch is $81KNZD (Level 1) to $154KNZD (Level 13), which includes compensation for working unsocial shifts (but excludes overtime). The ME thread indicates that pay there can be 50% to 75% more again.
If these are the places you are losing staff to, your management needs to address this pronto with a generous attitude or when the ME staffing/contract stuff gets settled within 6 months - the Emirates flights west bound from NZAA are probably going to have a lot of one way travellers with headsets in luggage.
If these are the places you are losing staff to, your management needs to address this pronto with a generous attitude or when the ME staffing/contract stuff gets settled within 6 months - the Emirates flights west bound from NZAA are probably going to have a lot of one way travellers with headsets in luggage.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: down here
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TC
You are right on the button, as I mentioned 10% per annum for the next 5 years. It would still fall well short of what I am earning here, but I would come back home from the M/E. It is as simple as that, I can gaurantee many others would too. I am earning 2 1/2 times what I do in NZ (in the hand). I would be a fool to return, it would only extend my planned retirement date! You are also right in that M/E contracts are ramping up. They will be too good to turn down, and a lot more ATCOs will come and join the party.
NZ is a lifestyle option for internationals, but they'll only stay for 2-3 years, Airways seem to be happy to spend large quantities of cash recruiting internationaly, it does nothing in the long run for the strength of the company by way of retaining or building an experienced workforce. More attention needs to be placed on keeping locals and bringing them home.
The ball is in Airways' court. It is now or never I feel. The M/E is the fatest growing region in the aviation world, the controllers that are needed right now are many, and with near future developments this number will double. Money talks in this part of the world. It is the only way to get people here. So wait for some solid contracts in the coming 12-24 months. This is going to hurt Airways, especially if they sit around and do nothing, goodwill has run out, what is left? It is well overdue.
You are right on the button, as I mentioned 10% per annum for the next 5 years. It would still fall well short of what I am earning here, but I would come back home from the M/E. It is as simple as that, I can gaurantee many others would too. I am earning 2 1/2 times what I do in NZ (in the hand). I would be a fool to return, it would only extend my planned retirement date! You are also right in that M/E contracts are ramping up. They will be too good to turn down, and a lot more ATCOs will come and join the party.
NZ is a lifestyle option for internationals, but they'll only stay for 2-3 years, Airways seem to be happy to spend large quantities of cash recruiting internationaly, it does nothing in the long run for the strength of the company by way of retaining or building an experienced workforce. More attention needs to be placed on keeping locals and bringing them home.
The ball is in Airways' court. It is now or never I feel. The M/E is the fatest growing region in the aviation world, the controllers that are needed right now are many, and with near future developments this number will double. Money talks in this part of the world. It is the only way to get people here. So wait for some solid contracts in the coming 12-24 months. This is going to hurt Airways, especially if they sit around and do nothing, goodwill has run out, what is left? It is well overdue.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: 20deg N, 35deg C
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slackie,
Being removed from the process obviously I can't comment but I admit that statement raised my eyebrows... Rotty, it seems you're questioning the integrity of the negotiators
Not to mention the huge cost in training these people too....
What's become of Sue's project concerning recruitment and training? Is Airways still insisting on charging Kiwi's for the privilage?
Conduct of the negotiators??
NZ is a lifestyle option for internationals, but they'll only stay for 2-3 years, Airways seem to be happy to spend large quantities of cash recruiting internationaly, it does nothing in the long run for the strength of the company by way of retaining or building an experienced workforce. More attention needs to be placed on keeping locals and bringing them home.
What's become of Sue's project concerning recruitment and training? Is Airways still insisting on charging Kiwi's for the privilage?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Half a world away from the Frozen Wastelands
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Results of the Training Review
I hear the training review has been completed, but not all the recommendations are going to be implemented. It looks like, once again, HR have been able to put their oar in and water it down - much like what happened to M.A.G.B's report on the Bay Sector. What's the word from the land of the long white cloud???
Slackie - I thought Rotty was commenting on the way the negotiations were conducted, not the conduct of the negotiators. Your boys, as usual, were doing their best, but from the sounds of it they have misread the mood of the masses. Maybe a rottweiler in the team (like 95) would have helpled.
Slackie - I thought Rotty was commenting on the way the negotiations were conducted, not the conduct of the negotiators. Your boys, as usual, were doing their best, but from the sounds of it they have misread the mood of the masses. Maybe a rottweiler in the team (like 95) would have helpled.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't questioning the integrity of the negotiators, although I would have to say they have not been a united group....... I do question their tactics, horsepower and ability to read the mood of the troops. If Slackie is interested in my views suggest a phone call would be better than an exchange of emails................
As to the Training Review......not well received by dear old Aunty Airways! While the review squarely hit the nail on the head pointing out the growing training problems we are experiencing, one gets the feeling that some bod in HR has been sent out the back of the "Death Star" to dig a very deep hole into which the said report can be buried. Aunty still believes that its staffing crisis will be solved by hiring from overseas................. Must be a big payrise just around the corner!
As to the Training Review......not well received by dear old Aunty Airways! While the review squarely hit the nail on the head pointing out the growing training problems we are experiencing, one gets the feeling that some bod in HR has been sent out the back of the "Death Star" to dig a very deep hole into which the said report can be buried. Aunty still believes that its staffing crisis will be solved by hiring from overseas................. Must be a
big payrise just around the corner!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: 20deg N, 35deg C
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good to hear Rotty and having re-read your post indeed you didn't question the negotiators integrity...
.
I know I've been removed from the process and while the war of '95 was a horrible time at least we were united as a group.....
I reiterate that it seems to me the only way you guys are going to be able to force the issue is to threaten the bottom line of the balance sheet and Airways reputation by introducing a bit of 'mongrel' into the process but if the majority of members aren't prepared to follow through then you're on a hiding to nothing.
As to the training review, if it does get buried then that would be a shame... in saying that however it comes as no surprise but maybe that's just the cynical streak in me...
All the best
TP
although I would have to say they have not been a united group....... I do question their tactics, horsepower and ability to read the mood of the troops
I know I've been removed from the process and while the war of '95 was a horrible time at least we were united as a group.....
I reiterate that it seems to me the only way you guys are going to be able to force the issue is to threaten the bottom line of the balance sheet and Airways reputation by introducing a bit of 'mongrel' into the process but if the majority of members aren't prepared to follow through then you're on a hiding to nothing.
As to the training review, if it does get buried then that would be a shame... in saying that however it comes as no surprise but maybe that's just the cynical streak in me...
All the best
TP
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: warm climate
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many left or are leaving for Australia? Are many talking seriously about coming to the M/E? Is there enough support for industrial action? It sounds like people are going to have to vote again, but for any serious changes in Airways offer to occur, this will have to be with their feet. Hit them where it hurts, on the balance sheet as TP says, and in their reputation. The International business will suffer somewhat when cusotmers (potential or current) discover the problems Airways are having. Not exactly a model business that inspires confidence. This aside I do feel for you all back home 
, the fact Airways as a world leader can not read the signs, and understand the fundamentals of supply and demand is bemusing to say the least. In fact I think it is quite disturbing, I thought the company was in good hands. I wish you luck, keep us posted with developments.
, the fact Airways as a world leader can not read the signs, and understand the fundamentals of supply and demand is bemusing to say the least. In fact I think it is quite disturbing, I thought the company was in good hands. I wish you luck, keep us posted with developments.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: in a world of my own
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training Review?
Rotty - or anyone else with info - what were the results of the Training Review anyway? Some of us in far-flung locales would be interested to know.
? Some of us in far-flung locales would be interested to know.