Pilot 'owns' the runway after landing clearance
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Pilot 'owns' the runway after landing clearance
Hi Guys
Would someone care to comment on post #101 on the thread below? Responding to a post on the previous page.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=283737&page=6
I've always understood that ATC can send someone around at any stage, over to you......
Would someone care to comment on post #101 on the thread below? Responding to a post on the previous page.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=283737&page=6
I've always understood that ATC can send someone around at any stage, over to you......
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Single Spey
I clear you to land , the runway is clear.
I send you around ,the runway is occupied which would prevent a safe landing.
Where does your posting fit in between the above statements
I clear you to land , the runway is clear.
I send you around ,the runway is occupied which would prevent a safe landing.
Where does your posting fit in between the above statements
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I clear you to land , the runway is clear.
I send you around ,the runway is occupied which would prevent a safe landing.
You as an ATCO are responsible for providing separation - I am responsible for the safety of the aircraft, its passengers, third parties and for collision avoidance.
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And a pilot can ignore ATC instructions if in following them he believes that the safety of his aircraft or its occupants will be compromised.
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I would like to think a pilot wouldn't just ignore an instruction, but at the very least query it. 
I the case mentioned, I agree with Single Spey that ultimately the pilot is responsible for the safety of his/her aircraft. However be prepared to back up you reasons when the subsequent forms are filed.
There is usally a very good reason why an ATCo will send you around aircraft which may not just include other a i.e the vehicle that has been seen passing the hold.... the deer spotted about to leg it across the runway
I the case mentioned, I agree with Single Spey that ultimately the pilot is responsible for the safety of his/her aircraft. However be prepared to back up you reasons when the subsequent forms are filed.
There is usally a very good reason why an ATCo will send you around aircraft which may not just include other a i.e the vehicle that has been seen passing the hold.... the deer spotted about to leg it across the runway
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Sad to see a lot of 'us and them' posts going on at the moment - so I'll try to avoid doing it myself.
To answer the original post, the comment made in #101 in the other thread is incorrect. Period.
There are a multitude of subtleties and nuances in the rules about how ATC is done - the interpretation of some fundamental points differs between countries. A couple of principles can normally be assumed. First that ATC will have a reason for taking any particular decision or issuing any particular instruction. It won't always be the decision that suits everybody best because we don't live in an ideal world but it will be made with safety in mind (i.e. controllers do not normally issue a clearance that will not result in a safe outcome). Remember, too, that no pilot will have all of the information that the controller has and so it is not possible for a pilot to second guess the reason for a decision. Unfortunately it is not possible to explain all of the factors that affect an controller's decision making process in a Pprune post - that's why it takes a while to train to be a controller.
The second principle is that the pilot is responsible for the safety of his/her aircraft and that may mean that, in extremis, the pilot does something contrary to the rules or an ATC instruction. In this case, just as a controller will have to do if rules are broken, the pilot will have to have a darned good justification.
Oh, what the hell................. I like to think that I'm a fairly easy-going sort but I do get a little riled when an idiot who - if his/her profile is true - has the experience level of PPL and nothing more than a C172 under their control comes out with tripe like #101. Not only is it out and out wrong but is plants ridiculous ideas into other people's minds.
To answer the original post, the comment made in #101 in the other thread is incorrect. Period.
There are a multitude of subtleties and nuances in the rules about how ATC is done - the interpretation of some fundamental points differs between countries. A couple of principles can normally be assumed. First that ATC will have a reason for taking any particular decision or issuing any particular instruction. It won't always be the decision that suits everybody best because we don't live in an ideal world but it will be made with safety in mind (i.e. controllers do not normally issue a clearance that will not result in a safe outcome). Remember, too, that no pilot will have all of the information that the controller has and so it is not possible for a pilot to second guess the reason for a decision. Unfortunately it is not possible to explain all of the factors that affect an controller's decision making process in a Pprune post - that's why it takes a while to train to be a controller.
The second principle is that the pilot is responsible for the safety of his/her aircraft and that may mean that, in extremis, the pilot does something contrary to the rules or an ATC instruction. In this case, just as a controller will have to do if rules are broken, the pilot will have to have a darned good justification.
Oh, what the hell................. I like to think that I'm a fairly easy-going sort but I do get a little riled when an idiot who - if his/her profile is true - has the experience level of PPL and nothing more than a C172 under their control comes out with tripe like #101. Not only is it out and out wrong but is plants ridiculous ideas into other people's minds.
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singke spey...
Question 1....Why are you going too fast?
Question 2....Did you not get "wind checks" on finals
I have seen go arounds at 3 miles......
and in the flare
One was due to RVR and 'tother a Snow squall.
But they were Professional [ Pilots
watp,iktch
But I'm going too fast to stop in the available distance/ there is a sudden gust/crosswind which I am unable to cope with, so it would be unsafe for me to continue without hazarding the aircraft or pax. My call.
Question 2....Did you not get "wind checks" on finals
I have seen go arounds at 3 miles......
and in the flare One was due to RVR and 'tother a Snow squall.
But they were Professional [ Pilots
watp,iktch
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I think single spey is pretty spot on.He can override atc's instructions as long as he has the justification and the kahona's to back it up in the aftermath.
I've seen it before in fog where a pilot was cleared for take off when there was an aircraft lost on the airfield. The pilot refused until the said aircraft was found. Atc got angry and lost rag!. Turned out lost aircraft was sat on runway, would have been big boo boo!
In the end they are on the plane and i'm not, I think if they feel that it's not safe then it probably isn't.
I've seen it before in fog where a pilot was cleared for take off when there was an aircraft lost on the airfield. The pilot refused until the said aircraft was found. Atc got angry and lost rag!. Turned out lost aircraft was sat on runway, would have been big boo boo!
In the end they are on the plane and i'm not, I think if they feel that it's not safe then it probably isn't.
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Spitoon
Fully agree with your points, from the controllers point of view.
However also remember that no controller will have all of the information that the pilot has and so it is not possible for a controller to second guess the reason for a pilots course of action.
Fully agree with your points, from the controllers point of view.
Remember, too, that no pilot will have all of the information that the controller has and so it is not possible for a pilot to second guess the reason for a decision.
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Yes, too many us and thems. Both the ATCO and the commander of the aircraft concerned are obviously trying to ensure a safe operation, and actually they are working in a complementary manner. Both need to do a good job to ensure safety.
But, and this is no slight whatsoever on the ATCO, it is patently the aircraft commander's job to ensure his aircraft's safety, and he can legally override any ATC instruction in that endeavour.
Yes, there'll be an MOR and the whole matter will be looked into if he or she does defy an ATCO's instuction, but the pilot is the person in the aicrraft and it is logical that that person has to make the final decision. This final decision is, of course, nearly always to follow the ATCO's instruction, as the Commander knows that the ATCO is probably in a better position to make a decision on most relevant issues.
But not weather. If the Commander decides he must land off the approach and the ATCO says "go around" due weather (which should not happen in Britain), the Commander can exercise his prerogative knowing he is legally able to. Whether he was right to do so is a different matter, and this will be determined subsequently.
If I may make one comment about some of the aggressive ATCO responses (I assume they come from ATCOs, but they may not). Get that chip off your shoulder! You do a brilliant job and should be proud to be a part of a successful business, but pilots also do a pretty decent job over all, and both professions work as a team. Same comment to those snotty pilots who think they are God's gift to aviation.
But, and this is no slight whatsoever on the ATCO, it is patently the aircraft commander's job to ensure his aircraft's safety, and he can legally override any ATC instruction in that endeavour.
Yes, there'll be an MOR and the whole matter will be looked into if he or she does defy an ATCO's instuction, but the pilot is the person in the aicrraft and it is logical that that person has to make the final decision. This final decision is, of course, nearly always to follow the ATCO's instruction, as the Commander knows that the ATCO is probably in a better position to make a decision on most relevant issues.
But not weather. If the Commander decides he must land off the approach and the ATCO says "go around" due weather (which should not happen in Britain), the Commander can exercise his prerogative knowing he is legally able to. Whether he was right to do so is a different matter, and this will be determined subsequently.
If I may make one comment about some of the aggressive ATCO responses (I assume they come from ATCOs, but they may not). Get that chip off your shoulder! You do a brilliant job and should be proud to be a part of a successful business, but pilots also do a pretty decent job over all, and both professions work as a team. Same comment to those snotty pilots who think they are God's gift to aviation.
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However also remember that no controller will have all of the information that the pilot has and so it is not possible for a controller to second guess the reason for a pilots course of action.
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with respect to ATCO's and I deal with you ever day of my working life, I depend on you and like wise you depend on us to not f it up........but single spey has some very valid points that will erk you. Bottom line is no matter what side of the fence you are on, there will be occassions when stong calls are made on both sides to make it happen...courts of enquiries are there to facilitate when issues arise. HR leave it with the smart reply.
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I'm an ATCO and here is my spin on it:
You instruct an aircraft to go around for whatever reason. There are only 2 people who truly know the exact status of the flight that you have sent around - one is in the left hand seat, the other in the right.
Now, should there be some overpowering reason for them to land the aircraft and they are fully aware of the situation, if they elect to land it is their call - ANO states that the final responsibility for a flight rests with the commander of the flight blah, blah, blah. If they subsequently weld it into something (God forbid) THEY will have to a/. justify their decision and b/. live with the consequences.
ATCOs play a vital part but sometimes, just sometimes, we get a little carried away with our own importance. So let's cut these guys with 100 million quid planes under their control a little bit of slack.
P7
You instruct an aircraft to go around for whatever reason. There are only 2 people who truly know the exact status of the flight that you have sent around - one is in the left hand seat, the other in the right.
Now, should there be some overpowering reason for them to land the aircraft and they are fully aware of the situation, if they elect to land it is their call - ANO states that the final responsibility for a flight rests with the commander of the flight blah, blah, blah. If they subsequently weld it into something (God forbid) THEY will have to a/. justify their decision and b/. live with the consequences.
ATCOs play a vital part but sometimes, just sometimes, we get a little carried away with our own importance. So let's cut these guys with 100 million quid planes under their control a little bit of slack.
P7
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I think the diplomatic answer is that the Airport Authority owns the runway at all times so if a pilot decides to land without the appropriate clearance then they will have to have a damn good reason for doing so, likewise if a controller uses the runway inappropriately they they have answers to give too. End of.
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ATCOs play a vital part but sometimes, just sometimes, we get a little carried away with our own importance. So let's cut these guys with 100 million quid planes under their control a little bit of slack.
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Oh, what the hell................. I like to think that I'm a fairly easy-going sort but I do get a little riled when an idiot who - if his/her profile is true - has the experience level of PPL and nothing more than a C172 under their control comes out with tripe like #101. Not only is it out and out wrong but is plants ridiculous ideas into other people's minds.
) It would have been good if you had read the posts I was replying to and my subsequent ones. Almost all my flying is done in CAS with ATC and I know very well that you can send me around at any time. However, please read the previous posts on the other thread (assuming they are correct), have a think, and then reply again.
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I am sat here watching posts by a few individuals whom I would describe as armchair critics, trying their very best to undermine ATCOs and belittle the work they do, bringing into question their professionalism and training standards.
Let me say now that it takes a very particular type of person to become an ATCO, look at all the threads on here by wannabees who sadly didn't even get past the selection phase or who fall by the wayside during training. To get to a point where you hold your own licence and can sit their on your own controlling is a hugely difficult process and it has taken a long time and in that time they have learnt a far more comprehensive air law than the PPL.
We are well aware that ultimate responsibility for the aircraft lies with the commander but we have a huge knowledge behind us to ensure we assist that commander to the nth degree , we are there not just to separate IFR aircraft but to provide as service to all aircraft.
Safety is at the forefront of every ATCOs brain, it comes before everything. We will not knowingly place an aircraft into a dangerous situation.
Flying VFR we rely on pilots to assist us with weather reporting, our radars don't tell us where the weather is hence the normal clearance includes "maintain VMC" in crossing clearances, we expect you to advise us if you cannot maintain VMC. It is a partnership of trust.
Most of the time in the UK we get it very right occasionally of course we don't but having sat for more years than I care to remember working LARS I can assure you many GA pilots don't get it right, infact they can be very scary but we sit there and we do our best for them.
It is frustrating beyond belief to come to a forum to have a few individuals who believe they have knowledge because they fly a bit to hear them attempt to belittle ATC I note it is almost always PPLs and not the guys with more qualifications who do this , in responding to those comments we are described as arrogant or have a chip on our shoulders. We seem to be the one profession in aviation that everyone else thinks they know and thinks they can do and we have to sit here week in week out whilst people deride us.
I would say to anyone who thinks they know it all to go and sit for a day in an OPS room listening to what happens both on and off mike you will then maybe realise that there is one hell of a lot more to ATC than a few instructions.
Most of my colleagues here will be careful in how they respond as they are well aware they have careers to consider, I don't any longer so I shall speak up for my colleagues to say give it a rest , by all means question we enjoy answering genuine questions but stop the needling criticism and read what they write, all you are doing at the moment is creating a them and us scenario but I think that is actually what you want.
Let me say now that it takes a very particular type of person to become an ATCO, look at all the threads on here by wannabees who sadly didn't even get past the selection phase or who fall by the wayside during training. To get to a point where you hold your own licence and can sit their on your own controlling is a hugely difficult process and it has taken a long time and in that time they have learnt a far more comprehensive air law than the PPL.
We are well aware that ultimate responsibility for the aircraft lies with the commander but we have a huge knowledge behind us to ensure we assist that commander to the nth degree , we are there not just to separate IFR aircraft but to provide as service to all aircraft.
Safety is at the forefront of every ATCOs brain, it comes before everything. We will not knowingly place an aircraft into a dangerous situation.
Flying VFR we rely on pilots to assist us with weather reporting, our radars don't tell us where the weather is hence the normal clearance includes "maintain VMC" in crossing clearances, we expect you to advise us if you cannot maintain VMC. It is a partnership of trust.
Most of the time in the UK we get it very right occasionally of course we don't but having sat for more years than I care to remember working LARS I can assure you many GA pilots don't get it right, infact they can be very scary but we sit there and we do our best for them.
It is frustrating beyond belief to come to a forum to have a few individuals who believe they have knowledge because they fly a bit to hear them attempt to belittle ATC I note it is almost always PPLs and not the guys with more qualifications who do this , in responding to those comments we are described as arrogant or have a chip on our shoulders. We seem to be the one profession in aviation that everyone else thinks they know and thinks they can do and we have to sit here week in week out whilst people deride us.
I would say to anyone who thinks they know it all to go and sit for a day in an OPS room listening to what happens both on and off mike you will then maybe realise that there is one hell of a lot more to ATC than a few instructions.
Most of my colleagues here will be careful in how they respond as they are well aware they have careers to consider, I don't any longer so I shall speak up for my colleagues to say give it a rest , by all means question we enjoy answering genuine questions but stop the needling criticism and read what they write, all you are doing at the moment is creating a them and us scenario but I think that is actually what you want.