ATC and flight crew errors
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Maybe pilots are afraid of upsetting the ATCO?
This could be because they possibly think that, as they technically have to do what we tell them, p!ssing us off could result in them getting less help (i.e direct routings, intersection departures etc.), and before I get abuse, please note I say "they possibly think" and not "this actually happens"!!
Also, as has been mentioned before, I think there's a difference in response because when we make a mistake, it generally only affects one a/c, but when a pilot makes a mistake, it can have a knock on effect on several other a/c as well, leading to a massive increase in workload.
That being said, I do try not to give bollockings on the RT, and find a well placed comment can do just as well. But when you've called a taxiing a/c 5 times to tell him to give way to another one and you get no response as they're getting closer and closer, it tends to get a bit irritating and you may get a "please listen out"!!
As for us not knowing what goes on on a flight deck...its actually part of our training (or at least it used to be!!) to do at least 2 fam flights, sponsored by the worlds favourite, so i'd say that myself and every one my colleagues have been up the pointy end and seen it from the pilots perspective, and so we know there are pressures up there as well. Has every pilot in the industry gone to visit a tower or centre? I doubt it!!
FB
This could be because they possibly think that, as they technically have to do what we tell them, p!ssing us off could result in them getting less help (i.e direct routings, intersection departures etc.), and before I get abuse, please note I say "they possibly think" and not "this actually happens"!!
Also, as has been mentioned before, I think there's a difference in response because when we make a mistake, it generally only affects one a/c, but when a pilot makes a mistake, it can have a knock on effect on several other a/c as well, leading to a massive increase in workload.
That being said, I do try not to give bollockings on the RT, and find a well placed comment can do just as well. But when you've called a taxiing a/c 5 times to tell him to give way to another one and you get no response as they're getting closer and closer, it tends to get a bit irritating and you may get a "please listen out"!!
As for us not knowing what goes on on a flight deck...its actually part of our training (or at least it used to be!!) to do at least 2 fam flights, sponsored by the worlds favourite, so i'd say that myself and every one my colleagues have been up the pointy end and seen it from the pilots perspective, and so we know there are pressures up there as well. Has every pilot in the industry gone to visit a tower or centre? I doubt it!!
FB
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Fair enough but would you agree that a comment like: 'If you're not interested in what I have to say you'd better stay away', (ground controller to a/c who missed an exit, with laughter in the background) is unheard of? And I believe these are the comments Callo is referring to, correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, it happens. Quite often.
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I have never personally heard anyone say anything like that and would be quite appalled if I, did to be honest, as that is exceptionally unprofessional and unnecessary!!
As has been said, if comments like that are made, then report it as that's not on!
FB
As has been said, if comments like that are made, then report it as that's not on!
FB
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Have to say most of my comments are made without pressing the PTT switch luckily!!!
However, I have got cross when a pilot on GMC doesn't listen, and you call them many times with no response. When you eventually get them they say "Oh sorry, had the radio turned down too low". I have said "It is a requirement to maintain a listening watch" or so but a bollocking NEVER. If there is a problem I get them either to call the tower or get an airfield OPS vehicle to have a word with the pilot. For outbounds of course there is the "watch this muppet" call to radar!
Basically I have only seen 2 or 3 pilots in my tower in the last 4 years, so perhaps it is a real problem with lack of task appreciation.
Anyway they are all PILLOTS!!
However, I have got cross when a pilot on GMC doesn't listen, and you call them many times with no response. When you eventually get them they say "Oh sorry, had the radio turned down too low".
I have said "It is a requirement to maintain a listening watch" or so but a bollocking NEVER. If there is a problem I get them either to call the tower or get an airfield OPS vehicle to have a word with the pilot. For outbounds of course there is the "watch this muppet" call to radar!Basically I have only seen 2 or 3 pilots in my tower in the last 4 years, so perhaps it is a real problem with lack of task appreciation.
Anyway they are all PILLOTS!!
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Flyodie I think you are quite right when you say nobody has of yet given an explanation as to why this happens.
I'm not only referring to b*llockings that happen but also small smarmy comments which I've heard. ATC stress levels have been mentioned but as I stated I am only referring to scenarios where the event hasn't inconvenienced anyone otherwise some reorganisation would be heard on freq.
I am well aware of stress levels especially working for a company that cannot plan for on time arrivals and I find myself continuosly apologising for shortcomings outside of my control. Imagine my stress levels as I was cleared into a cul de sac only to face an outbound aircraft. I bit my tongue as it has been pointed out "we all make mistakes".
Had I made the wrong turn myself however and ended up facing the ac head on it seems alot of you would justify b*llocking the crew. It seems we deal with mistakes and stress levels differently which is why I have posted the original thread. Maybe flight crew are to blame for being too polite?
As for annoying ATC and therefore not getting preferential treatment I think thisis a non starter. I think Heathrow operates on get them out any way possible. Letting you favourite airline out would surely only increase workload further. As crew we're not naive enough to believe you have favourites. Some of our European colleagues on the otherhand
I'm not only referring to b*llockings that happen but also small smarmy comments which I've heard. ATC stress levels have been mentioned but as I stated I am only referring to scenarios where the event hasn't inconvenienced anyone otherwise some reorganisation would be heard on freq.
I am well aware of stress levels especially working for a company that cannot plan for on time arrivals and I find myself continuosly apologising for shortcomings outside of my control. Imagine my stress levels as I was cleared into a cul de sac only to face an outbound aircraft. I bit my tongue as it has been pointed out "we all make mistakes".
Had I made the wrong turn myself however and ended up facing the ac head on it seems alot of you would justify b*llocking the crew. It seems we deal with mistakes and stress levels differently which is why I have posted the original thread. Maybe flight crew are to blame for being too polite?
As for annoying ATC and therefore not getting preferential treatment I think thisis a non starter. I think Heathrow operates on get them out any way possible. Letting you favourite airline out would surely only increase workload further. As crew we're not naive enough to believe you have favourites. Some of our European colleagues on the otherhand
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@Callo,
I too find it difficult to explain it although there is an underlying truth in my first reply. One of the things I can think of is 'because they get away with it', but that would not explain where the desire to do it comes from and I think that's what you're really looking for in order to understand.
There is the idea which has been mentioned before that controllers see the world as them telling pilots what to do, which gives them a special kind of power in their perception. A false perception as far as I'm concerned but it is extremely difficult to change someone else's view of the world.
Another possible explanation may be that if you, as a pilot, would do it you most probably would be told off immediately by your captain and if you are the captain chances are your first officer would in the least raise their brows. This kind of, what I call social control, is not very much implemented in ATC despite the fact that they have by now all attended to a TRM workshop. TRM is the ATC equivalent of CRM. TRM of course is as valuable as how the controller chooses to apply it. They are not assessed on their TRM related behaviour and there are few ANSPs in Europe that actively have implemented a programme that would stimulate adherence to TRM.
A lot of may bees and possibles, I know. It might be worth a study because I sincerely believe it potentially is a threat to safety.
I too find it difficult to explain it although there is an underlying truth in my first reply. One of the things I can think of is 'because they get away with it', but that would not explain where the desire to do it comes from and I think that's what you're really looking for in order to understand.
There is the idea which has been mentioned before that controllers see the world as them telling pilots what to do, which gives them a special kind of power in their perception. A false perception as far as I'm concerned but it is extremely difficult to change someone else's view of the world.
Another possible explanation may be that if you, as a pilot, would do it you most probably would be told off immediately by your captain and if you are the captain chances are your first officer would in the least raise their brows. This kind of, what I call social control, is not very much implemented in ATC despite the fact that they have by now all attended to a TRM workshop. TRM is the ATC equivalent of CRM. TRM of course is as valuable as how the controller chooses to apply it. They are not assessed on their TRM related behaviour and there are few ANSPs in Europe that actively have implemented a programme that would stimulate adherence to TRM.
A lot of may bees and possibles, I know. It might be worth a study because I sincerely believe it potentially is a threat to safety.
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"I'm not only referring to b*llockings that happen but also small smarmy comments which I've heard. ATC stress levels have been mentioned but as I stated I am only referring to scenarios where the event hasn't inconvenienced anyone otherwise some reorganisation would be heard on freq."
Callo
From a radar point of view you might not know of the reorganisation a mistake might of caused. Phone calls to the next sector saying so and so is x thousand feet high because they descended too late happens from time to time. The next sector therefore might be the one doing the reorganising.
This is just one example and I agree with many of the other posts that we need more pilots to visit centres and towers, which without doubt would reduce the amount of bollockings and increase apprecition significantly from both sides.
Callo
From a radar point of view you might not know of the reorganisation a mistake might of caused. Phone calls to the next sector saying so and so is x thousand feet high because they descended too late happens from time to time. The next sector therefore might be the one doing the reorganising.
This is just one example and I agree with many of the other posts that we need more pilots to visit centres and towers, which without doubt would reduce the amount of bollockings and increase apprecition significantly from both sides.
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@oceans11
true as your scenario may be, what is the added value of making a snappy remark when something like that happens. Do you really think that because of that pilots will behave better in the future? There is no excuse for the way corrections are sometimes made. The best way is at the right moment in a business way. No matter how busy you are. I would say: 'The busier one is, the less time one should waste on that kind of useless contribution to r/t pollution'. And I don't even mention the upset one creates.
I do agree that visits can contribute to mutual understanding but I fail to understand how one can justify bollocking a pilot because he has not been to see us
true as your scenario may be, what is the added value of making a snappy remark when something like that happens. Do you really think that because of that pilots will behave better in the future? There is no excuse for the way corrections are sometimes made. The best way is at the right moment in a business way. No matter how busy you are. I would say: 'The busier one is, the less time one should waste on that kind of useless contribution to r/t pollution'. And I don't even mention the upset one creates.
I do agree that visits can contribute to mutual understanding but I fail to understand how one can justify bollocking a pilot because he has not been to see us
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Can you please tell me where I justified giving a bollocking to a pilot. All I said was you might not know if a mistake did inconvenience anyone, as it may effect a different sector, therefore a different frequency.
Also your last point doen't make much sense, I don't have the time to ask everyone on frequency if they have been to see us, then proceed to be rude to everyone who hasn't.
I do not agree with bollockings being handed out over the r/t.
Also your last point doen't make much sense, I don't have the time to ask everyone on frequency if they have been to see us, then proceed to be rude to everyone who hasn't.
I do not agree with bollockings being handed out over the r/t.
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@oceans11
I stand corrected, you did not say that, I read it between the lines for which i apologise.
Also by saying: 'we need more pilots to visit centres and towers, which without doubt would reduce the amount of bollockings', I thought you meant that it is understandable that pilots get bollocked since not many come and visit control rooms. I translated that into agreeing with which you again did not say.
I stand corrected, you did not say that, I read it between the lines for which i apologise.
Also by saying: 'we need more pilots to visit centres and towers, which without doubt would reduce the amount of bollockings', I thought you meant that it is understandable that pilots get bollocked since not many come and visit control rooms. I translated that into agreeing with which you again did not say.
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If we forget the reasons why for a minute and look at what can be done about it, I sincerely believe that if pilots would make a phonecall afterwards and ask to talk to the controller they got bollocked by and explain the fact that they do NOT appreciate it, many controllers would start to realise that they might better refrain from that kind of 'communication'.
I still believe that this should not be necessary but there you go. It is a matter of feedback isn't it? Of course that will not be possible or very difficult in many cases but one could try to make a start?
I still believe that this should not be necessary but there you go. It is a matter of feedback isn't it? Of course that will not be possible or very difficult in many cases but one could try to make a start?
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Interesting parallels between this thread and many of the comments expressed in 'Swanwick Skygods'. I would hazard a guess that most controllers who feel it punchy and macho to make sarcastic remarks over the R/T are of the same arrogant personality alluded to by DC10RealMan in his thread. Maybe someone should take a look at the culture instilled at the College, or have a rethink on the selection process.
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@radarman,
I do agee to a certain extend hever, culture the result of attitudes and behaviours of people within a group. The veterans are at least equally responsible for it as the newbies if not more.
I do agee to a certain extend hever, culture the result of attitudes and behaviours of people within a group. The veterans are at least equally responsible for it as the newbies if not more.
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Lots of good discussion here. 
Floydie:
I don't think anyone could come up with a justification, only possible reasons.
I agree with Fly Bhoy, I can't imagine anyone at LHR saying that sort of thing, and we do have our fair share of ATCOs who do point out aircrew errors in the ways talked of here (and funnily enough, it tends to be the more senior ATCOs who do so). If you do hear an ATCO talking like that, please put a report in, or at the very least phone up the supervisor/watch manager etc.
Not correct. Most have, not all.
Warning, generalisation coming up......
At the end of the day, it might be useful to remind ourselves that sometimes the interests of the ATCO (safety for all, and greatest overall expedition, at the expense of the expedition of individual flights) does not sit easily with the flight crew's interests (singularly ensuring their passengers (and they themselves!) are safe and again expedition for their own flight).
In that regard, we, as ATCOs do have to put up with a level (which varies greatly) of 'friction' (a la Clausewitz) from crews. This can range from "How long will it be for our stand?" to other other extreme "Ground, I know you said hold position, but if that one pushes long, and then that other one gives way to us, we can taxy here and there and be number one!!!" Certainly at LHR this is a regular occurrence. While I do not begrudge the flight crew asking me any questions, I can sometimes be too busy to give a satisfactory answer. We never get to hear the occasions where the crew decides not to ask us, because they judge it's too busy, so as ATCOs our perception can easily be that some/many/most crew are impatient so and sos only interested in their own flight and ignorant of the big picture. This can lead some/many etc ATCOs to think that any flight crew mistakes needs to be highlighted, and shoved down a peg or two.
Just my 0.02.
But at the end of the day, we do need to root it out. The last thing I'd want to happen if I was about to pilot a 747 on a 14 hour flight is ATC at my departure field having a go at me and highlighting my mistakes to everyone.
Floydie:
GT3 comes closest to explain it but there is no justification in his reply as far as I'm concerned.
'If you're not interested in what I have to say you'd better stay away'
they have by now all attended to a TRM workshop.
Warning, generalisation coming up......
At the end of the day, it might be useful to remind ourselves that sometimes the interests of the ATCO (safety for all, and greatest overall expedition, at the expense of the expedition of individual flights) does not sit easily with the flight crew's interests (singularly ensuring their passengers (and they themselves!) are safe and again expedition for their own flight).
In that regard, we, as ATCOs do have to put up with a level (which varies greatly) of 'friction' (a la Clausewitz) from crews. This can range from "How long will it be for our stand?" to other other extreme "Ground, I know you said hold position, but if that one pushes long, and then that other one gives way to us, we can taxy here and there and be number one!!!" Certainly at LHR this is a regular occurrence. While I do not begrudge the flight crew asking me any questions, I can sometimes be too busy to give a satisfactory answer. We never get to hear the occasions where the crew decides not to ask us, because they judge it's too busy, so as ATCOs our perception can easily be that some/many/most crew are impatient so and sos only interested in their own flight and ignorant of the big picture. This can lead some/many etc ATCOs to think that any flight crew mistakes needs to be highlighted, and shoved down a peg or two.
Just my 0.02.
But at the end of the day, we do need to root it out. The last thing I'd want to happen if I was about to pilot a 747 on a 14 hour flight is ATC at my departure field having a go at me and highlighting my mistakes to everyone.
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But at the end of the day, we do need to root it out
I agree with most of what you said. Do you have any ideas about how to tackle this apart from reporting? I can see but one way which is to change attitudes and behaviours. Isn't TRM the obvious tool available to do just that? Why not personally approach someone if you hear any of this and give them good feedback before reporting? I know it does take some courage particularly if it's a 'youngster' having to tell a veteran but that's where the pilot's community is ahead of the ATC world. What is there to loose?
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Why is it that alot of people in ATC are so eager and quick to jump down a pilots throat when he makes a simple and small mistake and yet the pilot community wouldn't dream of doing this to ATC.
However, you make a very valid point, and as others have commented, bullying from anyone using RT displays a condescension and lack of respect on both sides which is totally unacceptable. Slightly off thread here, but the same sort of poor attitudes can sometimes be found in communications between adjacent units.
Maybe TRM and CRM needs to be looked at - to reinforce the fact that anyone receiving a public and humiliating telling off will probably be far more vulnerable to making a mistake.
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Dont do it!
Stay objective and keep your emotions off air.
A short story:
We had para ops at our Oz mil base. No template - just jumpout of the helo at 10000 and land on the sports ground - situated about 100mteres behind the active turboprop lines! Activity was NOTAMED and start clearance was required for all acft .
For most of the day this worked well. Everyone called up for start. If a drop was in process request denied - very very safe and seemingly foolproof.
Come the end of the mil day (4.30pm) a BE200 starts up and begins taxiing! No clearnace! Drop in progress. Chutes appear overhead and land very close to apron ! Near miss sort of!
As the ATC Sup of the day , (and it had been a long day with some basic f*ckups on both sides of the fence) I got into the pilot and basically belated him for starting and taxiing etc.(The base had a culture of aircrew doing there own thing and ATC picking up the pieces) I remember trying not too speak my thoughts, but I was very piss*d off and frustrated that our rules(NOTAM ) were once again being ignored by the operator due to their own expedition requirements (later learnt pilot was fairly senior officer flying very very senior visiting officer home!) I remember saying "but surely you read the NOTAM?" Er no they hadnt!! Anyway enough said acft went to TWR and promptly took off before a take of clearance was issued. ASOR no 2 - thanks very much! Two own goals by the pilots in one aftrenoon!!
Later that day( it was long shift) pilot returns and we agree to have a CRM chat about the events. Best way forward in hindsight. He agreed that he was at fault as he was rushing, behind schedule, senior pax etc and ... he could only contact ATC through the radio when it was turned ...on which was at the end of his start up checklist!! Sytematic error!! He didnt enjoy being berated ..albeit politely ..by a FLTLT ATC er! Him WGCDR .. airing his error in front of all listeners ... including AiR Commodore in jumpseat on headset! So he became very focused on other things, got a bit angry, and didnt listen out for appropriate clearance. Pressonitus????
From my perspective I just got a bit cross as a lot of small misdemeanors had been going on over the previous months and nothing had changed despite some very proactive feedback on ATC's part!. I got angry / personal on the RT!! Wrong - keep emotion out of it. If you go there I think youll look back and regret it!
Just a thought or two. One of the few benefits of getting older and wiser I hope!
DogGone
Stay objective and keep your emotions off air.
A short story:
We had para ops at our Oz mil base. No template - just jumpout of the helo at 10000 and land on the sports ground - situated about 100mteres behind the active turboprop lines! Activity was NOTAMED and start clearance was required for all acft .
For most of the day this worked well. Everyone called up for start. If a drop was in process request denied - very very safe and seemingly foolproof.
Come the end of the mil day (4.30pm) a BE200 starts up and begins taxiing! No clearnace! Drop in progress. Chutes appear overhead and land very close to apron ! Near miss sort of!
As the ATC Sup of the day , (and it had been a long day with some basic f*ckups on both sides of the fence) I got into the pilot and basically belated him for starting and taxiing etc.(The base had a culture of aircrew doing there own thing and ATC picking up the pieces) I remember trying not too speak my thoughts, but I was very piss*d off and frustrated that our rules(NOTAM ) were once again being ignored by the operator due to their own expedition requirements (later learnt pilot was fairly senior officer flying very very senior visiting officer home!) I remember saying "but surely you read the NOTAM?" Er no they hadnt!! Anyway enough said acft went to TWR and promptly took off before a take of clearance was issued. ASOR no 2 - thanks very much! Two own goals by the pilots in one aftrenoon!!
Later that day( it was long shift) pilot returns and we agree to have a CRM chat about the events. Best way forward in hindsight. He agreed that he was at fault as he was rushing, behind schedule, senior pax etc and ... he could only contact ATC through the radio when it was turned ...on which was at the end of his start up checklist!! Sytematic error!! He didnt enjoy being berated ..albeit politely ..by a FLTLT ATC er! Him WGCDR .. airing his error in front of all listeners ... including AiR Commodore in jumpseat on headset! So he became very focused on other things, got a bit angry, and didnt listen out for appropriate clearance. Pressonitus????
From my perspective I just got a bit cross as a lot of small misdemeanors had been going on over the previous months and nothing had changed despite some very proactive feedback on ATC's part!. I got angry / personal on the RT!! Wrong - keep emotion out of it. If you go there I think youll look back and regret it!
Just a thought or two. One of the few benefits of getting older and wiser I hope!
DogGone
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Not wishing to "wee on the chips" of flight crews, I have been on the receiving end of many a whinge/berating/dressing down over the RT from pilots just because they feel "hard done by" in a sequence, have a CTOT or because they think they should be number 1 to depart.
I fully agree that there is NO place for this sort of unprofessional behaviour on the RT. All UK ATS units publish their telephone numbers in the UK AIP, and using the telephone or undertaking personal visits to the units concerned are the ONLY way to address issues that are not safety critical.
Any pilot that made any sort of unsavoury comment over the RT to me was met with "Roger, the XXXX Watch Manager is available via landline to discuss this further." Any further exchanges or comments were ignored.
There should be an element of self policing in this, and ATCOs and Pilots can encourage the destruction of such attitudes by using the topic for Continuation Training, CRM or TRUCE discussions.
I fully agree that there is NO place for this sort of unprofessional behaviour on the RT. All UK ATS units publish their telephone numbers in the UK AIP, and using the telephone or undertaking personal visits to the units concerned are the ONLY way to address issues that are not safety critical.
Any pilot that made any sort of unsavoury comment over the RT to me was met with "Roger, the XXXX Watch Manager is available via landline to discuss this further." Any further exchanges or comments were ignored.
There should be an element of self policing in this, and ATCOs and Pilots can encourage the destruction of such attitudes by using the topic for Continuation Training, CRM or TRUCE discussions.
Last edited by Ops and Mops; 23rd Mar 2007 at 21:47.
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Very interesting discussion.
I can't speak for LHR but unfortunately it also happens sometimes in LGW. Every once in a while you get a controller giving a pilot a dressing down over the R/T. A NWA aircraft making a wrong turn springs to mind.
Gonzo,
If we ask how long it takes before our stand becomes available doesn't always mean we are impatient. We got people in the back who we need to keep updated so if we can give them an approximate time that keeps them happy.
Unfortunately its not only controllers dressing down pilots but its also the other way around. However the pilot may do it in a different way. In our company we have a certain Captain who is of the impatient type and thinks he is gods gift to aviation. Every so often we have to hold somewhere because our stand is still occupied. This **** goes on the R/T and keeps asking for updates every five minutes while the controller clearly said it would take 25 minutes. And to make it worse, we could see the aircraft occupying our stand. So we could exctly see what was going on. But no this guy thinks that everybody is working for him only and that the whole airlfield needs to grind to a halt because we have to wait for our stand.
So yes, i sometimes can imagine why ATC gets fed up with us pilots. However a dressing down over the R/T is never a good idea by either controller or pilot.
I can't speak for LHR but unfortunately it also happens sometimes in LGW. Every once in a while you get a controller giving a pilot a dressing down over the R/T. A NWA aircraft making a wrong turn springs to mind.
Gonzo,
If we ask how long it takes before our stand becomes available doesn't always mean we are impatient. We got people in the back who we need to keep updated so if we can give them an approximate time that keeps them happy.
Unfortunately its not only controllers dressing down pilots but its also the other way around. However the pilot may do it in a different way. In our company we have a certain Captain who is of the impatient type and thinks he is gods gift to aviation. Every so often we have to hold somewhere because our stand is still occupied. This **** goes on the R/T and keeps asking for updates every five minutes while the controller clearly said it would take 25 minutes. And to make it worse, we could see the aircraft occupying our stand. So we could exctly see what was going on. But no this guy thinks that everybody is working for him only and that the whole airlfield needs to grind to a halt because we have to wait for our stand.
So yes, i sometimes can imagine why ATC gets fed up with us pilots. However a dressing down over the R/T is never a good idea by either controller or pilot.