ATC and flight crew errors
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ATC and flight crew errors
Could someone explain to me why there is such a huge difference in dealing with errors between the pilot community and ATC.
I have heard over the radio many incidents of controllers having a serious go at pilots for missing taxiways and radio calls etc. On the other hand I can't think of a single situation where I heard a pilot comment on an error made by ATC except to say "no problem" or "thought that sounded odd".
Why is it that alot of people in ATC are so eager and quick to jump down a pilots throat when he makes a simple and small mistake and yet the pilot community wouldn't dream of doing this to ATC. It serves no prupose sounding condescending and trying to berate someone. Can we not simply make the party aware of the error and leave it that. As professionals we take great pride in our work and shouldn't have to resort to this. Most of my colleagues personally hate making these trivial errors and the last thing they need is some jumped up controller having a go.
I realise mistakes can lead to disaster and having to repeat yourself can be frustrating but this doesn't explain some of the dressing downs I've heard.
Lets treat each other with the respect we deserve even if management won't.
I have heard over the radio many incidents of controllers having a serious go at pilots for missing taxiways and radio calls etc. On the other hand I can't think of a single situation where I heard a pilot comment on an error made by ATC except to say "no problem" or "thought that sounded odd".
Why is it that alot of people in ATC are so eager and quick to jump down a pilots throat when he makes a simple and small mistake and yet the pilot community wouldn't dream of doing this to ATC. It serves no prupose sounding condescending and trying to berate someone. Can we not simply make the party aware of the error and leave it that. As professionals we take great pride in our work and shouldn't have to resort to this. Most of my colleagues personally hate making these trivial errors and the last thing they need is some jumped up controller having a go.
I realise mistakes can lead to disaster and having to repeat yourself can be frustrating but this doesn't explain some of the dressing downs I've heard.
Lets treat each other with the respect we deserve even if management won't.
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Callo,
sounds to me as if you have been on the receiving end of a bollocking recently!!
However, it is wholly unprofessional to have a go on the R/T, although it does happen.
The only reason I can think of for ATCOs doing it is because if a pilot makes an error, such as going down the wrong taxiway, it can have a big knock on effect to lots of other aircraft - a carefully laid out plan could be totally screwed up and cause a lot of hard work to recover the situation....
As for the missing the radio calls - I personally do not get worked up if I have to call an aircraft twice... however I have had instances when I have tried to call an aircraft and it has taken 4 or 5 calls to get through - I would then probably say something like "This is the 5th time I have called you, listen out". I also get extremely pee'd off with A/C that need a couple of calls for every instruction due to not paying attention - again, I would ask them to listen out more carefully.
However, that's about the strongest bollocking I would issue, anything more is IMHO, unprofessional... if I felt the situation warranted a major bollocking, I would wait until relieved, then fill in a report, naming the aircraft, and my grievance.
sounds to me as if you have been on the receiving end of a bollocking recently!!
However, it is wholly unprofessional to have a go on the R/T, although it does happen.
The only reason I can think of for ATCOs doing it is because if a pilot makes an error, such as going down the wrong taxiway, it can have a big knock on effect to lots of other aircraft - a carefully laid out plan could be totally screwed up and cause a lot of hard work to recover the situation....
As for the missing the radio calls - I personally do not get worked up if I have to call an aircraft twice... however I have had instances when I have tried to call an aircraft and it has taken 4 or 5 calls to get through - I would then probably say something like "This is the 5th time I have called you, listen out". I also get extremely pee'd off with A/C that need a couple of calls for every instruction due to not paying attention - again, I would ask them to listen out more carefully.
However, that's about the strongest bollocking I would issue, anything more is IMHO, unprofessional... if I felt the situation warranted a major bollocking, I would wait until relieved, then fill in a report, naming the aircraft, and my grievance.
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Unless the error was safety CRITICAL, (but even then) it is not proffessional to have a go over the RT. I myself feel harsh sometimes requesting a pilot to read back a correct service or pressure but then it is a real safety issue. I have overheard some atco's (not at my current unit) give a real beasting over the RT. In my opinion this would only make the situation worse, and increase any tension both on the flight deck and on terra firma...
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First of all thanks for the reply Anotherthing but no I have not had a talking down to recently. I have merely observed numerous aircraft being spoken to rather bluntly. I feel for the vast majority of these errors there was no need for it.
Heathrow is my base so it's where I've noticed most of it but I do believe it's one of the best ATC airports. With all the work going on we have on occasion struggled to find the correct route. You very often hear ATC saying to carriers not based in Heathrow "I told you left on _,left on _. Okay I need you now to go via _" where there were clearly no safety implications or knock on effects. The tone very often insinuates this has totally affected Heathrow traffic flow when that is not the case. You do not need to point out and highlight errors in such a brash manner. Why not say, "you seem to have gone wrong, no problem take _ instead".
I would never speak in such a tone to ATC even when they have cleared me into a cul de sac with another aircraft about to taxi out. My point is we're all professionals who hate mistakes. Commenting on and exacerbating a mistake helps no one.
Please note I merely use Heathrow as an example of a situation throughout Europe. I decided not to comment on some of our European colleagues
Heathrow is my base so it's where I've noticed most of it but I do believe it's one of the best ATC airports. With all the work going on we have on occasion struggled to find the correct route. You very often hear ATC saying to carriers not based in Heathrow "I told you left on _,left on _. Okay I need you now to go via _" where there were clearly no safety implications or knock on effects. The tone very often insinuates this has totally affected Heathrow traffic flow when that is not the case. You do not need to point out and highlight errors in such a brash manner. Why not say, "you seem to have gone wrong, no problem take _ instead".
I would never speak in such a tone to ATC even when they have cleared me into a cul de sac with another aircraft about to taxi out. My point is we're all professionals who hate mistakes. Commenting on and exacerbating a mistake helps no one.
Please note I merely use Heathrow as an example of a situation throughout Europe. I decided not to comment on some of our European colleagues
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I think the problem of LHR is the pressure that the controllers are under due to not only workload but also the WIP which is un-ending and also the amount of effort that has gone into the move to the NVCR oh and the small problem (??) of Mr. Walsh's airline not being able to operate in any decent manner once they arrive at their gates. All adds up I am sure you can imagine!
Tempers are often frayed and whilst I do give the odd telling off I notice some of my collegues are more often heard to do the same.
When you have to deal with a mis-route on GMC it does take a large portion of the mental capacity you have to a) resolve any conflictions that may now be caused b) work out a new route and then examine its effects c) whilst doing this try and ensure that all the others are still doing what we want! If prior to this you have had 4 BA aircraft unable to park and the ensuing delays one thing can easily break the camel's back and hell is unleashed on the poor person who makes a simple mistake.
Tempers are often frayed and whilst I do give the odd telling off I notice some of my collegues are more often heard to do the same.
When you have to deal with a mis-route on GMC it does take a large portion of the mental capacity you have to a) resolve any conflictions that may now be caused b) work out a new route and then examine its effects c) whilst doing this try and ensure that all the others are still doing what we want! If prior to this you have had 4 BA aircraft unable to park and the ensuing delays one thing can easily break the camel's back and hell is unleashed on the poor person who makes a simple mistake.
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Callo.
In general I agree with you, and rarely point out flight crew mistakes.
However, it does get rather stupefying when, for example, we're landing on 27R and of all the BAW and BMA a/c coming off at A9E told to turn left on Bravo, and read it back, half of them automatically turn left on Alpha.
In general I agree with you, and rarely point out flight crew mistakes.
However, it does get rather stupefying when, for example, we're landing on 27R and of all the BAW and BMA a/c coming off at A9E told to turn left on Bravo, and read it back, half of them automatically turn left on Alpha.
However, it does get rather stupefying when, for example, we're landing on 27R and of all the BAW and BMA a/c coming off at A9E told to turn left on Bravo, and read it back, half of them automatically turn left on Alpha.
..........Oh, never mind, the nurse will be round with my medication soon!
YS
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Wouldn't change anything, I used to use the same route back when we had the inner and outer, and flight crew were still getting it wrong with the same frequency! 
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Pilots make errors.
ATCOs make plans which may, subject to the exegencies of the situation, require adjustment (or possibly redirection to the correct callsign...).
ATCOs make plans which may, subject to the exegencies of the situation, require adjustment (or possibly redirection to the correct callsign...).
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@Callo,
ATCOs simply do not have a clue about what goes on in the cockpit and they think and expect that the flightcrew is just sitting on the radio eager to reply to any instruction given ASAP.
Also ATCOs are in a situation where a pilot's error can easily screw up a plan totally and they think that by bollocking pilots these errors can be prevented.
Thirdly ATCOs are more frustrated than pilots because they feel that the industry treats them as a second hand part of it. Actually they are jealous of pilots because they get all the good stuff whilst ATCOs always have to clear up the mess made by pilots.
Fourthly ATCOs think that in their job it is important to be the best in the world instead of being safe.
ATCOs simply do not have a clue about what goes on in the cockpit and they think and expect that the flightcrew is just sitting on the radio eager to reply to any instruction given ASAP.
Also ATCOs are in a situation where a pilot's error can easily screw up a plan totally and they think that by bollocking pilots these errors can be prevented.
Thirdly ATCOs are more frustrated than pilots because they feel that the industry treats them as a second hand part of it. Actually they are jealous of pilots because they get all the good stuff whilst ATCOs always have to clear up the mess made by pilots.
Fourthly ATCOs think that in their job it is important to be the best in the world instead of being safe.
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Callo,
When you see this occurring, report it via your company or direct with a phone call to ATC ops. As you say, it's out of order to issue a b*llocking over the R/T which will almost certainly distract crews from their many other tasks. Ultimately as part of the same industry, we should all be on the same side. And I'll start b*llocking crews for genuine mistakes, just as soon as I stop making them myself and need crews to help me out on occasion.....!
floydie,
If you're being ironic in some way, then you're much cleverer than me because I can't work out your post. If, however, you're being serious, then I'm gobsmacked at the hypocrisy of your statement "ATCOs simply don't have a clue about what goes on in the cockpit...", given what follows it.
When you see this occurring, report it via your company or direct with a phone call to ATC ops. As you say, it's out of order to issue a b*llocking over the R/T which will almost certainly distract crews from their many other tasks. Ultimately as part of the same industry, we should all be on the same side. And I'll start b*llocking crews for genuine mistakes, just as soon as I stop making them myself and need crews to help me out on occasion.....!
floydie,
If you're being ironic in some way, then you're much cleverer than me because I can't work out your post. If, however, you're being serious, then I'm gobsmacked at the hypocrisy of your statement "ATCOs simply don't have a clue about what goes on in the cockpit...", given what follows it.
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Floydie,
I've been trying to work out whether you're an ATCO or crew, you've posted in the past asking for help in applying in airlines, but you seem to hang out most here in the ATC forum.
Perhaps you'd like to clarify?
I've been trying to work out whether you're an ATCO or crew, you've posted in the past asking for help in applying in airlines, but you seem to hang out most here in the ATC forum.
Perhaps you'd like to clarify?
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@ Gonzo,
Sure, I am both. I have been an ATCO for 21 years and a pilot for 15. I have very often been ashamed, not just in the UK mind you, about the behaviour of ATCOs on the r/t exactly as Callo describes it.
I know ATCOs don't think much of it and their intention usually is not to be insulting but they often are very patronising.
I realise I am generalising here and I apologise to those that do recognise themselves in my description. I call on those who do but are not able to admit it for whatever reason, you are using a lot of r/t time ineffectively, something you always say you don't want to. You do harm to the relation between flightcrew and ATC.
Sure, I am both. I have been an ATCO for 21 years and a pilot for 15. I have very often been ashamed, not just in the UK mind you, about the behaviour of ATCOs on the r/t exactly as Callo describes it.
I know ATCOs don't think much of it and their intention usually is not to be insulting but they often are very patronising.
I realise I am generalising here and I apologise to those that do recognise themselves in my description. I call on those who do but are not able to admit it for whatever reason, you are using a lot of r/t time ineffectively, something you always say you don't want to. You do harm to the relation between flightcrew and ATC.
Last edited by floydie; 21st Mar 2007 at 08:41.
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I also would like to challenge everybody to actually answer Callo's question being: 'Could someone explain to me why there is such a huge difference in dealing with errors between the pilot community and ATC?'
GT3 comes closest to explain it but there is no justification in his reply as far as I'm concerned. It only demonstrates the belief that the flightcrew does not suffer from similar pressure.
GT3 comes closest to explain it but there is no justification in his reply as far as I'm concerned. It only demonstrates the belief that the flightcrew does not suffer from similar pressure.