Swanwick Skygods
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Swanwick Skygods
I thought that I have never underestimated the arrogance, greed, and inflated self-importance of some of the younger atcos at Swanwick, however recent events have prompted me to write this post. For those who know me I am not known for my shy and retiring nature, but even I have sat in incredulous disbelief at some of the crass and pompous statements made about colleagues who happen to be members of the atsa grade within their hearing and without reference to the members of staff concerned as though these colleagues are invisible. There are many issues affecting colleagues who are members of the atsa grade of which ifacts is just one of them and to hear atco colleagues discussing these sensitive issues which involves colleagues livelihoods, mortgages, childrens education, partners, etc with such complete actual or perceived indifference is beyond the pale. These younger atcos are truly "thatchers children" with all the nasty and greedy connotations that that implies. Unfortunately some of these atcos sense of self-importance is not matched by their technical or aeronautical knowledge and/or experience and my only "comfort" is that within a few years as atc technology "improves" the atcos concerned will be following the same path as atsas, flight engineers, navigators, radio operators, and hansom cab drivers. If this rant seems rather nasty and vindictive then I make no apology for that, and for those who know me come and tell me to my face as I am the one who wears the very stylish Hawaiian shirts!
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 16th Mar 2007 at 07:32.
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Wise words Mr Fallows
I really couldn't believe my ears at Hurn when my fellow studes would make nasty-minded comments about atsas (I think 'strip-monkeys' was one of the more 'pleasant' comments). The total lack of respect for professional colleagues disgusted me - certainly no need for an apology from you. Your comments have just proven that nothing's changed.
I really couldn't believe my ears at Hurn when my fellow studes would make nasty-minded comments about atsas (I think 'strip-monkeys' was one of the more 'pleasant' comments). The total lack of respect for professional colleagues disgusted me - certainly no need for an apology from you. Your comments have just proven that nothing's changed.
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Tony,
I fully agree with your statements - we unfortunately have the same kind of people here in Maastricht.
However, maybe an internal mail would be of more use rather than a public website. The type of people that you are trying to reach probably don't have the interest or "professionalism" to keep up to date with aviation related topics and therefore will not visit sites like these.
They just take the money and run!
I hope you have some success and that your message does get through
I fully agree with your statements - we unfortunately have the same kind of people here in Maastricht.
However, maybe an internal mail would be of more use rather than a public website. The type of people that you are trying to reach probably don't have the interest or "professionalism" to keep up to date with aviation related topics and therefore will not visit sites like these.
They just take the money and run!
I hope you have some success and that your message does get through
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Millerman,
I did think about putting it on the nats website, but I think that this attitude/philosophy is actually common throughout most of the atc world. I referred in my original post to younger colleagues but it is also prevalent in some of the older personnel although that is for cultural/historical reasons. It also reminds me of the airline flight deck envirioment in the 1970s and 1980s where certain pilots would treat their colleagues in a quite outrageous manner to hide their own personal or professional inadequacies to the detriment of flight safety. Speaking personally it is a matter of supreme indifference as I have far more important things to do than atc matters and I am always comforted by the fact that when I am retired these people and their egos will be working at 0300 to provide me with my pension.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
I did think about putting it on the nats website, but I think that this attitude/philosophy is actually common throughout most of the atc world. I referred in my original post to younger colleagues but it is also prevalent in some of the older personnel although that is for cultural/historical reasons. It also reminds me of the airline flight deck envirioment in the 1970s and 1980s where certain pilots would treat their colleagues in a quite outrageous manner to hide their own personal or professional inadequacies to the detriment of flight safety. Speaking personally it is a matter of supreme indifference as I have far more important things to do than atc matters and I am always comforted by the fact that when I am retired these people and their egos will be working at 0300 to provide me with my pension.
Tony Fallows
Swanwick
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 16th Mar 2007 at 10:57.
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Well it looks like TRM has been a success down there then!!. We were having a discussion similar to this in work yesterday.It is not a problem here...but I recall when I first pitched up at Redbrae(younger ATCO's..ask your granddads) there was a shocking us and them attitude,which I put down to the ATCO's being mostly ex military . I am sorry to hear that attitudes appear to have remained constant.
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I fully agree. ATSAs are what keep our place running smoothly despite, or indeed because of, EFPS. Any flight planning or stand management query, anything non-standard in fact, the first person we turn to is the ATSA. They invariably know how to sort the problem out.
Most of them have been there a long time and have seen all there is to see in ATC, where as many of our controllers, albeit competent and keen, are new, young and a little green behind the ears (and I include myself in that). Long live the ATSA.
Most of them have been there a long time and have seen all there is to see in ATC, where as many of our controllers, albeit competent and keen, are new, young and a little green behind the ears (and I include myself in that). Long live the ATSA.
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Sorry to hear that attitude still exists south of the border....when I started 30 years ago there was a definate them and us attitude, all the ATSA's young and just out of school, all the ATCO's mainly ex RAF and on their last legs,gradually as time has passed by things have changed....ATCO's now full of the flush of youth and ATSA's going grey and old!! Here north of the border I feel we all work together as a team....yes there will always be the exception, I guess on both sides but to be honest we all work in perfect harmony...I hope.
Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!!
Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!!
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Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!!
Why are SATCOs given a company car allowance, and ATCOs and ATSAs not?
Why are ATCO1s given BUPA cover for themselves and their family, while ATCO 2 and 3s will have it only for themselves?
Why are ATCOs paid more than ATSAs?
What was the discussion, DC10? I'm worried now that I've been upsetting all my ATSA colleagues when I talk about EFPS and our new tower with other ATCOs, within their earshot.
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OK,
I'll bite...
I've met Tony, and I can sympathise with his "comments/concerns", but and there is a big BUT, I do NOT think that this "attitude" is prevelent in/to NATS as a whole......but.....I "could" be wrong.
At Manch, we have a "True" policy of "Open Reporting"... BUT I have heard that this is NOT common throughout the Company...
If not, WHY NOT?
watp,iktch
I'll bite...
I've met Tony, and I can sympathise with his "comments/concerns", but and there is a big BUT, I do NOT think that this "attitude" is prevelent in/to NATS as a whole......but.....I "could" be wrong.
At Manch, we have a "True" policy of "Open Reporting"... BUT I have heard that this is NOT common throughout the Company...
If not, WHY NOT?
watp,iktch
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
Reference has been made to ifacts and efps and other technlogical "improvements". The actual event is not really relevant. My point is that colleagues who are members of the atsa grade may or may not lose their livelihoods and sitting around the coffee table and hearing atco colleagues say and I quote "that one of the benefits of ifacts is that it will get rid of the atsas" and that "atcos when they have had enough of radar should do the FIS so that they can have a rest" irrespective of the fact that other colleagues livelihoods depend on it is just plain rude. Being "an atsa" is not a religious calling, article of faith, political tract, or way of life it is just an administrative title to specify a group of colleagues doing particular jobs, and it should not be used as an excuse for condescending remarks or insults, particularly from people who are somewhat lacking in personal, educational, and life skills.
Fallows xx
Reference has been made to ifacts and efps and other technlogical "improvements". The actual event is not really relevant. My point is that colleagues who are members of the atsa grade may or may not lose their livelihoods and sitting around the coffee table and hearing atco colleagues say and I quote "that one of the benefits of ifacts is that it will get rid of the atsas" and that "atcos when they have had enough of radar should do the FIS so that they can have a rest" irrespective of the fact that other colleagues livelihoods depend on it is just plain rude. Being "an atsa" is not a religious calling, article of faith, political tract, or way of life it is just an administrative title to specify a group of colleagues doing particular jobs, and it should not be used as an excuse for condescending remarks or insults, particularly from people who are somewhat lacking in personal, educational, and life skills.
Fallows xx
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 18th Mar 2007 at 01:09.
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Hi Tony. Sorry to hear how you feel. For what it's worth, I'm one of the younger ATCOs (depending on how you classify that), and I've never personally heard anyone say anything negative about the ATSA role.
I don't feel that the attitude you talk about is as widely spread as this thread would suggest, but I know how easily generalisations can be made. Just try not to tar all us skygods with the same brush.
Most assistants are top people, and if the time ever came where they weren't there, I for one would miss them.
I don't feel that the attitude you talk about is as widely spread as this thread would suggest, but I know how easily generalisations can be made. Just try not to tar all us skygods with the same brush.
Most assistants are top people, and if the time ever came where they weren't there, I for one would miss them.
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Hola Gringos !
This typifies the Corporate Mentality they are probably trying to brainwash into the employees at your new ATC Centre. It is all too common these days. The British are well practiced at Divide & Rule and this is what they are doing here. I have been shown around a British ATC unit and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One, which is a trendy drinking place for London air-heads, who think they have style when in fact are about ten years out of date, just like your young ATCOs. Seņor Fallows, you sound like an average chap but I think your point about Thatcher's children is also out of date, like your ATCOs. They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet. With regard to the company you work for, I would imagine that in recent years you have suffered an excess of Corporate Bullsh1t in genuine Yankee style. I am also certain that the real aviation person is now in the minority.
This typifies the Corporate Mentality they are probably trying to brainwash into the employees at your new ATC Centre. It is all too common these days. The British are well practiced at Divide & Rule and this is what they are doing here. I have been shown around a British ATC unit and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One, which is a trendy drinking place for London air-heads, who think they have style when in fact are about ten years out of date, just like your young ATCOs. Seņor Fallows, you sound like an average chap but I think your point about Thatcher's children is also out of date, like your ATCOs. They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet. With regard to the company you work for, I would imagine that in recent years you have suffered an excess of Corporate Bullsh1t in genuine Yankee style. I am also certain that the real aviation person is now in the minority.
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and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One
Been here many times before & everybody knows that what an ATCO wears to work has absolutly no bearing on his ability to control planes.
They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet.
Don`t talk sh1t. We firstly got the qualifications to allow us to be enrolled at The ATC College, then after the best part of 3-4 years study & training at both the college & the unit, have got the qualifications to control traffic for real on our own and in some cases instruct trainees as an OJTI.
I agree that some trainees think they are "it" when they appear out of the college, but as Vasa said, Don`t tar us all with the same brush.
From a young ATCO.
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Blub Blub
Very interesting post. Just remember the younger ATCO's do have emotions. I am sure I heard in the last Concorde flight from LHR the young ATCO going something like:
"Concorde (blub blub) Line up runway (boo hoo tears) 27 (very tired and emotional moment) Left ...."
He was young and obviously either was doing it for media effect or showed feelings. Yes a young ATCO with feelings ;-)
"Concorde (blub blub) Line up runway (boo hoo tears) 27 (very tired and emotional moment) Left ...."
He was young and obviously either was doing it for media effect or showed feelings. Yes a young ATCO with feelings ;-)
