Swanwick Skygods
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Somebody must have really upset you Tony!
Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been ATCOs. However this isn't the first time I've heard unfavourable things about some of the less mature controllers at Swanwick! Agree with everything that Hermano said apart from the bit about 'dress style' since that's not really part of what this thread is about.
Talking to a colleague today (a TC ATCO) there seems to be a similiar 'attitude problem' on certain watches in TC. As somebody who is due to be posted to Swanwick sometime this year this thread does nothing to make me feel any better. I've yet to speak to anybody who has a good word to say about the place!
All the best from one of your old colleagues (bet you can't guess who) see you later in the year.
Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been ATCOs. However this isn't the first time I've heard unfavourable things about some of the less mature controllers at Swanwick! Agree with everything that Hermano said apart from the bit about 'dress style' since that's not really part of what this thread is about.
Talking to a colleague today (a TC ATCO) there seems to be a similiar 'attitude problem' on certain watches in TC. As somebody who is due to be posted to Swanwick sometime this year this thread does nothing to make me feel any better. I've yet to speak to anybody who has a good word to say about the place!
All the best from one of your old colleagues (bet you can't guess who) see you later in the year.
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
Thank you for your both pro and anti comments. I would agree that most of our colleagues are fine people who I am proud to call colleagues and friends. I just want to make it clear that I personally have no axe to grind. I am far too ugly, fat, and sartorially expressive to be bothered about such immature ravings and posturings, in fact I tend to laugh at such nonsense and get on with far more important issues like Flying, Fishing and supporting the World Famous Northwich Victoria F.C. however I do know of younger and more sensitive colleagues who are concerned about their future and who do take offence to some of the things that are said and are too intimidated to defend either themselves or their colleagues and it is on their behalf that I posted my original observations.
Fallows xxx
EGLL19791986 I presume that I owe you money?
Thank you for your both pro and anti comments. I would agree that most of our colleagues are fine people who I am proud to call colleagues and friends. I just want to make it clear that I personally have no axe to grind. I am far too ugly, fat, and sartorially expressive to be bothered about such immature ravings and posturings, in fact I tend to laugh at such nonsense and get on with far more important issues like Flying, Fishing and supporting the World Famous Northwich Victoria F.C. however I do know of younger and more sensitive colleagues who are concerned about their future and who do take offence to some of the things that are said and are too intimidated to defend either themselves or their colleagues and it is on their behalf that I posted my original observations.
Fallows xxx
EGLL19791986 I presume that I owe you money?
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One of the nicest guys I've ever met in NATS was a young ATCO from Swanwick. However, I've also had the pleasure of dealing with the arrogant, impatient, demanding attitude that does exist within the ranks down there. There is elitism with ATCOs generally in reference to other grades. There also appears to be an extra level of elitism from those at Swanwick.
I'm glad I'm well removed from it. I also know it doesnt apply to all... A little bit of humility and consideration goes a long way.
I'm glad I'm well removed from it. I also know it doesnt apply to all... A little bit of humility and consideration goes a long way.
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I like atsa's, i want atsa's to stay. I have no desire to do route amendments, pass estimates and all the other things that atsa's do. When the system falls down and blows up on the first day of ifacts that will be because i tried to do something i have no understanding of.
A young atco (sort of)
A young atco (sort of)
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Interesting thread.
I'm going to have to tread carefully, as apparently, my management takes a rather dim view of staff expressing views on Pprune, so apologies in advance for the relative obscurity.
Anyway, during my time as a trainee NATS ATCO many years ago, I and my course were constantly hyped up as being the best of the best, and all that claptrap, which, if it's still being fed to trainees, might explain more than a little of the "We're Sky Gods; ATSAs are lesser beings" attitude in some of the successful trainees when they emerge into daylight.
When I crashed and burned from my course, I was given an ATSA post at a certain major London airport, and when I managed to break out of the confusion my change of status incurred (bear in mind - "You're the best of the best; the top 5% of humanity, and we'll do anything for you" turned to complete indifference and total lack of support from anywhere apart from the operational staff working with me, so very difficult to come to terms with initially), what I found was that yes, the newly-qualified ATCOs sometimes took a little time to adjust down to reality, but the large majority of them did so quite successfully, so I hope things haven't changed as much as is implied in this thread.
What I also found was that there were a very few of the older controllers whose attitude towards ATSAs was nothing short of disgraceful - they treated us pretty much as objects of derision and contempt that they had no option but to put up with. My attitude developed into 'such is life', but what became clear was that although I gave a consistently good service to all, I naturally and willingly did more for those large majority of ATCOs who had a good and mutually-respectful rapport with me as an ATSA, and I know that was very apparent and very much appreciated by the very large majority of ATCOs.
As for being called a strip-monkey, I found that an original title that was both descriptive and amusing, but then perhaps I've got a warped sense of humour.
Since leaving that unit, I went to work in a certain European capital city, and the attitude there was that one particular operational section was staffed by "ATCOs", with "ATSAs" doing the lesser tasks, while the other sections were staffed by "ATSAs" only, with a widely-held opinion (even among those 'managers' not of an ATC background) that "ATSAs" were a lesser species. The ridiculous thing about this is that the "ATSA"-staffed sections actually had a lot of ex-controllers, both civil and military, along with ex-assistants, airline ops managers, dispatchers, and even an ex-airport manager, so although the ATCO/ATSA view is hardly reasonable, it is there, and it didn't look like it'd be going away for the foreseeable future.
Such is life, bearing in mind that not all ATSAs are perfect beings, and the same applies to ATCOs, but a lot of both species are very good at their job and are normal, respectful human beings.
Anyway, this ex-ATSA likes hearing the concern and respect voiced in this thread for the humble ATSA - it's much appreciated: thank you.
FD
I'm going to have to tread carefully, as apparently, my management takes a rather dim view of staff expressing views on Pprune, so apologies in advance for the relative obscurity.
Anyway, during my time as a trainee NATS ATCO many years ago, I and my course were constantly hyped up as being the best of the best, and all that claptrap, which, if it's still being fed to trainees, might explain more than a little of the "We're Sky Gods; ATSAs are lesser beings" attitude in some of the successful trainees when they emerge into daylight.
When I crashed and burned from my course, I was given an ATSA post at a certain major London airport, and when I managed to break out of the confusion my change of status incurred (bear in mind - "You're the best of the best; the top 5% of humanity, and we'll do anything for you" turned to complete indifference and total lack of support from anywhere apart from the operational staff working with me, so very difficult to come to terms with initially), what I found was that yes, the newly-qualified ATCOs sometimes took a little time to adjust down to reality, but the large majority of them did so quite successfully, so I hope things haven't changed as much as is implied in this thread.
What I also found was that there were a very few of the older controllers whose attitude towards ATSAs was nothing short of disgraceful - they treated us pretty much as objects of derision and contempt that they had no option but to put up with. My attitude developed into 'such is life', but what became clear was that although I gave a consistently good service to all, I naturally and willingly did more for those large majority of ATCOs who had a good and mutually-respectful rapport with me as an ATSA, and I know that was very apparent and very much appreciated by the very large majority of ATCOs.
As for being called a strip-monkey, I found that an original title that was both descriptive and amusing, but then perhaps I've got a warped sense of humour.
Since leaving that unit, I went to work in a certain European capital city, and the attitude there was that one particular operational section was staffed by "ATCOs", with "ATSAs" doing the lesser tasks, while the other sections were staffed by "ATSAs" only, with a widely-held opinion (even among those 'managers' not of an ATC background) that "ATSAs" were a lesser species. The ridiculous thing about this is that the "ATSA"-staffed sections actually had a lot of ex-controllers, both civil and military, along with ex-assistants, airline ops managers, dispatchers, and even an ex-airport manager, so although the ATCO/ATSA view is hardly reasonable, it is there, and it didn't look like it'd be going away for the foreseeable future.
Such is life, bearing in mind that not all ATSAs are perfect beings, and the same applies to ATCOs, but a lot of both species are very good at their job and are normal, respectful human beings.
Anyway, this ex-ATSA likes hearing the concern and respect voiced in this thread for the humble ATSA - it's much appreciated: thank you.
FD
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To count the number of times an ATSA has helped me out of a tight spot, I'd have to take my shoes, socks, and pants off, and TBH I'd probably still have to find some things to count on. Sad to hear that some people still think their own s**t doesn't smell.
Another young (ish) but perhaps crucially non swanwick ATCO.
Another young (ish) but perhaps crucially non swanwick ATCO.
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FD
As I have said "repeatedly" [and to Tony, Personally] I DO think that there is a North/South divide
I am an ATSA11 in the Tower at Manchester. So....
I contribute to the NATS "Safety Culture".....[I fill in 4114s'
],
I am a "valued Member of the Watch" [My "opinions" are listened to]
An "off unit" Watch Briefiing [Away day, with food and drinks supplied], was postponed because the "ATSAs" [as well as a couple of ATCOs] were unavailable
Different Strokes..........?
watp,iktch
As I have said "repeatedly" [and to Tony, Personally] I DO think that there is a North/South divide
I am an ATSA11 in the Tower at Manchester. So....
I contribute to the NATS "Safety Culture".....[I fill in 4114s'
], I am a "valued Member of the Watch" [My "opinions" are listened to]
An "off unit" Watch Briefiing [Away day, with food and drinks supplied], was postponed because the "ATSAs" [as well as a couple of ATCOs] were unavailable
Different Strokes..........?
watp,iktch
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Tony,
please do not take this the wrong way but what have you done to try and rule this behaviour out, using TRM principles?
I'm asking this because I am very curious how TRM does and/or could work in these cases. I always thought and hoped that it would make a difference but only when people are willing to take a risk and do something.
please do not take this the wrong way but what have you done to try and rule this behaviour out, using TRM principles?
I'm asking this because I am very curious how TRM does and/or could work in these cases. I always thought and hoped that it would make a difference but only when people are willing to take a risk and do something.
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Floydie,
You make a very good point and I am not in slightest bit offended. I have on occasion had a "quiet word" with one or two people and have tried to offer advice both technical and/or professional whether it was wanted or not. I have had the benefit of the NATS TRM courses, but I have also attended a number of airlines CRM courses as well, so I am quite familar with the general principles involved as well as the acceptable principles of good manners and behaviour. I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title.
Fallows
You make a very good point and I am not in slightest bit offended. I have on occasion had a "quiet word" with one or two people and have tried to offer advice both technical and/or professional whether it was wanted or not. I have had the benefit of the NATS TRM courses, but I have also attended a number of airlines CRM courses as well, so I am quite familar with the general principles involved as well as the acceptable principles of good manners and behaviour. I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title.
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I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title.
Even better I would think. If one is not personally affronted chances are one is all the more objective and so the ones 'on the sideline' may have a greater responsibility than others.
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Floydie,
I agree wholeheartly with that. I would also add that it is not just the personal responsibility of the individuals concerned except that some are just plain rude. It is an historical and cultural perspective within the whole ATC world and not just NATS. I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we!
Fallows
I agree wholeheartly with that. I would also add that it is not just the personal responsibility of the individuals concerned except that some are just plain rude. It is an historical and cultural perspective within the whole ATC world and not just NATS. I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we!
Fallows
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I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we!
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It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude.
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The young 'gods' need to know better. I would take a very dim view 
of some spotty yoof, fresh from Hurn running down fellow ATC professionals. After all, what the hell do they know, straight out of skool and just valid.
Things are surely better than in the late 70's/early 80's when controllers and assistants (bad term 'assistant' for someone who used to 'almost' separate the traffic procedurally and sort out all the exit levels, no OLDI then 'boys' - phone in each ear!) used to sit at separate tables in the canteen and there was a tangible 'officers and other ranks' mentality. Do we remember a certain ATCO threatening to take UKATTS to court for allowing assistants access? I @PO()* do - and he was a former ATCA
Its refreshing to see so many controllers supporting ATSA's here though.
of some spotty yoof, fresh from Hurn running down fellow ATC professionals. After all, what the hell do they know, straight out of skool and just valid.Things are surely better than in the late 70's/early 80's when controllers and assistants (bad term 'assistant' for someone who used to 'almost' separate the traffic procedurally and sort out all the exit levels, no OLDI then 'boys' - phone in each ear!) used to sit at separate tables in the canteen and there was a tangible 'officers and other ranks' mentality. Do we remember a certain ATCO threatening to take UKATTS to court for allowing assistants access? I @PO()* do - and he was a former ATCA
Its refreshing to see so many controllers supporting ATSA's here though.
More than just an ATCO
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Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated.
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QWERTY9,
I have to disagree with your contention that there is a divide between atco and atsa and your acceptance that there always will be, this is an artificial divide fed by egos and maintained by the managements of atc providers for their own ends and I would certainly not accept that these "barriers" make rudeness and discourtesy just "one of those things" that employees have to accept. Racism and sexism were at one time an "accepted" part of life, one would like to think that we have moved on a little since then.
Fallows
I have to disagree with your contention that there is a divide between atco and atsa and your acceptance that there always will be, this is an artificial divide fed by egos and maintained by the managements of atc providers for their own ends and I would certainly not accept that these "barriers" make rudeness and discourtesy just "one of those things" that employees have to accept. Racism and sexism were at one time an "accepted" part of life, one would like to think that we have moved on a little since then.
Fallows
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'It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude.'
Reminds me of the ginger fool on my course that walked out of the sim at Hurn declaring "I was really pushing tin there" - what a tool!
Reminds me of the ginger fool on my course that walked out of the sim at Hurn declaring "I was really pushing tin there" - what a tool!
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Lon More wrote : "Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated."
You must understand the psychology of an individual like this; he hates himself and projects this onto other people. Perhaps in your organisation you have noticed people with various attitudes being sent on Management Courses; they learn how to manage people and then afterwards promptly forget everything they have learned. Then they return to their own prejudices and biases as if they have never been on the course. You will often see them accuse others of the very thing from which they themselves suffer.
A contact in your organistion has told me that assistants are only employed for someone the ATCO's can look down on.
I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ?
You must understand the psychology of an individual like this; he hates himself and projects this onto other people. Perhaps in your organisation you have noticed people with various attitudes being sent on Management Courses; they learn how to manage people and then afterwards promptly forget everything they have learned. Then they return to their own prejudices and biases as if they have never been on the course. You will often see them accuse others of the very thing from which they themselves suffer.
A contact in your organistion has told me that assistants are only employed for someone the ATCO's can look down on.
I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ?
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@Hermano Lobo,
Interesting points you contribute.
As far as management courses and applying what's been learned is concerned. That's mainly due to the fact that these courses give peole a lot of information but they fail to demonstrate exactly how to apply this info. Also, we can't teach anybody anything. People can learn but only if they choose to.
This contact in the English organisation must have been a witty person or a person with a very screwed up mind. I won't take it seriously.
And finally for your comment on this possibly being exclusive for the British Isles. I've been around a bit and I can tell you that it's universal but not exclusively for ATC. But, and that is a big BUT, let's not think that this is the standard. It's always a few rotten apples in the basket that demonstrate this behaviour (which is driven by their attitudes). What always strikes me is that these rotten apples are not simply kicked out. Every organisation can do without them yet they seem to manage to claim their place
Interesting points you contribute.
As far as management courses and applying what's been learned is concerned. That's mainly due to the fact that these courses give peole a lot of information but they fail to demonstrate exactly how to apply this info. Also, we can't teach anybody anything. People can learn but only if they choose to.
This contact in the English organisation must have been a witty person or a person with a very screwed up mind. I won't take it seriously.
And finally for your comment on this possibly being exclusive for the British Isles. I've been around a bit and I can tell you that it's universal but not exclusively for ATC. But, and that is a big BUT, let's not think that this is the standard. It's always a few rotten apples in the basket that demonstrate this behaviour (which is driven by their attitudes). What always strikes me is that these rotten apples are not simply kicked out. Every organisation can do without them yet they seem to manage to claim their place
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Hermano Lobo, what exactly is a "real aviation person" ?
And as for dress style, I must be missing the portion of my licence that dictates what style to adopt. Imagine choosing my own style, thats just crazy, how do I do my job..?
And as for dress style, I must be missing the portion of my licence that dictates what style to adopt. Imagine choosing my own style, thats just crazy, how do I do my job..?