DFL 195+ UK airspace re-configuration
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Iceland
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFL 195+ UK airspace re-configuration
Oh what a joy .....
You thought you were confused ?
Today we have the jolly introduction of the all new super airspace DFL195 Class C division (with exceptions).
As an example ..... pity the poor Flightline 146s climbing out of Scatsta for Aberdeen ... and the poor controllers trying to a) understand the new airspace b) apply the new airspace c) explain the new airspace.
Would the desk-monkeys who created this bugger's muddle care to come and plug in and see for themselves how difficult they have made the job ? No, thought not .. probably don't know what colour the current licence is .....
In the space of 15 miles .. the 146 climbing to FL260 passes through Radar Control (in Sumburgh Zone), Radar Advisory (on the 3 miles of advisory route below FL195), Radar Information (as they leave the ADR and enter TRA8 - the military exemption to Class C airspace) above FL195, and then Radar Control as they climb above FL245 and into the 'safety' of class C airspcae again.
So, how do I tell them what service they are under ...
"In the next 15 miles you are under a
Radar Control/Advisory/Information/Control Service .... limited while I check through 15 pages of Supplementary Instruction just to see if I have understood correctly."
By which time of course .. they will be ready for descent into Aberdeen under a .... Radar Control/Information/Advisory/Control Service .....
Oh .. and that's not forgetting the other 8 aircraft on frequency at the time ...
Thanks for making a pi$$ easy job even easier ....
You thought you were confused ?
Today we have the jolly introduction of the all new super airspace DFL195 Class C division (with exceptions).
As an example ..... pity the poor Flightline 146s climbing out of Scatsta for Aberdeen ... and the poor controllers trying to a) understand the new airspace b) apply the new airspace c) explain the new airspace.
Would the desk-monkeys who created this bugger's muddle care to come and plug in and see for themselves how difficult they have made the job ? No, thought not .. probably don't know what colour the current licence is .....
In the space of 15 miles .. the 146 climbing to FL260 passes through Radar Control (in Sumburgh Zone), Radar Advisory (on the 3 miles of advisory route below FL195), Radar Information (as they leave the ADR and enter TRA8 - the military exemption to Class C airspace) above FL195, and then Radar Control as they climb above FL245 and into the 'safety' of class C airspcae again.
So, how do I tell them what service they are under ...
"In the next 15 miles you are under a
Radar Control/Advisory/Information/Control Service .... limited while I check through 15 pages of Supplementary Instruction just to see if I have understood correctly."
By which time of course .. they will be ready for descent into Aberdeen under a .... Radar Control/Information/Advisory/Control Service .....
Oh .. and that's not forgetting the other 8 aircraft on frequency at the time ...
Thanks for making a pi$$ easy job even easier ....
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BD
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BD
p.s. I write as the NATS ATC transition manager for the change.
p.p.s. The solution was DAPs response to meet the european requirement for UK to comply with DFL195.
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The N in NATS used to stand for National ..... but as long as the units providing a service only on Class C Airways are not affected, everything is fine then, and it's a success
A Class C Airway where half the route is blocked because gliders might or might not be flying right up to the edge. Apparently this is unsafe above FL195 but perfectly safe below that level ... duh ????
DFL195 was hailed as the UK complying with European SES and providing a common set of airspace, rules, and procedures across the continent. Except that the UK know better than everyone else and change it all again anyway to bring in their own rules and procedures. Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace being provided within Controlled Airspace .... the rest of the World must look at this small island with much bemusement and mirth as we once again show our inability to grasp standardisation and harmony.
A Class C Airway where half the route is blocked because gliders might or might not be flying right up to the edge. Apparently this is unsafe above FL195 but perfectly safe below that level ... duh ????
DFL195 was hailed as the UK complying with European SES and providing a common set of airspace, rules, and procedures across the continent. Except that the UK know better than everyone else and change it all again anyway to bring in their own rules and procedures. Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace being provided within Controlled Airspace .... the rest of the World must look at this small island with much bemusement and mirth as we once again show our inability to grasp standardisation and harmony.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFL195 was hailed as the UK complying with European SES and providing a common set of airspace, rules, and procedures across the continent. Except that the UK know better than everyone else and change it all again anyway to bring in their own rules and procedures. Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace being provided within Controlled Airspace .... the rest of the World must look at this small island with much bemusement and mirth as we once again show our inability to grasp standardisation and harmony.
BD
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Mayday
The only difference I can see from before DFL195 introduction is that you gave a RIS from FL195 to FL245. If you had continued with RAS, there would have been no change in the services you had to provide on 14 March.
You made it difficult for yourself!
The only difference I can see from before DFL195 introduction is that you gave a RIS from FL195 to FL245. If you had continued with RAS, there would have been no change in the services you had to provide on 14 March.
You made it difficult for yourself!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny Scotland
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
V/line,
unfortunately the decision was made long ago that we should not provide RAS unless on an advisory route(i believe a previous incident was the cause but i am prepared to be corrected).I agree with you though if you don't work outside CAS have class c airways and dont send aircraft direct very much then you won't have noticed much. HOWEVER it is not only 1 route.The problem we have here is that we provide services to the highlands and islands where there are no class c airways, only advisory routes which are now capped at 190 (195 not being allowed). Our customers used to file at levels above this where we were still able to provide RAS.
The half assedness of the situation is that although we have class C airspace, when the TRA's are active we are to treat the airspace like it is class G, for the majority of the day and only class c once the mil have gone home for tea and medals in the evening. yes it seems that once again we have bent over backwards to improve the service we offer our customers by bringing in controlled airspace and downgrading the radar service we provide in it!!! i look forward to the review in 6 months.
well done
unfortunately the decision was made long ago that we should not provide RAS unless on an advisory route(i believe a previous incident was the cause but i am prepared to be corrected).I agree with you though if you don't work outside CAS have class c airways and dont send aircraft direct very much then you won't have noticed much. HOWEVER it is not only 1 route.The problem we have here is that we provide services to the highlands and islands where there are no class c airways, only advisory routes which are now capped at 190 (195 not being allowed). Our customers used to file at levels above this where we were still able to provide RAS.
The half assedness of the situation is that although we have class C airspace, when the TRA's are active we are to treat the airspace like it is class G, for the majority of the day and only class c once the mil have gone home for tea and medals in the evening. yes it seems that once again we have bent over backwards to improve the service we offer our customers by bringing in controlled airspace and downgrading the radar service we provide in it!!! i look forward to the review in 6 months.
well done
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Iceland
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One single route? As I wrote earlier, not much impact in fact pretty much zero for LACC, LTCC and MACC.
Not quite so simple as that BD. With the activation of TRAs (Monday-Friday 9-5) (ie.generally all the time we have traffic on Westcoast, Moray and Tay) we have several advisory routes that go in and out of Class C (the stubs) and Class G, and back again, plus the RAS/RIS level change at FL195.
The point I was trying to make that you so wittily dismiss is that we now have a ludicrous situation on several routes where the aircraft can have (depending on levels and time of day) up to 4 or 5 different service changes in the space of 15-50 miles.
It may have little impact on your hallowed sectors down south
, however, you may not know but there are legal implications (so we are told) for getting the type of service right. If I (while watching the other aircraft on frequency, because we do sometiems work more than one at a time) forget to change service at one of the 4 or 5 critical moments, and the military jets wheeching around (we also get a lot of those up here by the way) get too close and I'm on the 'wrong' type of service .... who do you think gets it in the neck at the subsequent inquiry?The pilots for not noticing ? The fastjets for turning toward civil traffic ? The airspace desgners or transition managers for the shininess of their new ties?
Or the poor bugger with the licence ?
Out of interest which sectors do you work and did you by any chance come for a wee visit to Scottish to see the problems we have providing ATSOCAs in the frozen north ? You're welcome anytime.
Last edited by Captain Mayday; 16th Mar 2007 at 22:20.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Iceland
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You made it difficult for yourself!
Exactly how O Learned One ?
I don't dictate what levels aircraft want to fly at or what Class of airspace the routes are made of.
But someone sat behind a desk tells me what services I am allowed or expected to provide in each Class of airspace.
My hands are tied.
OK I could just cop out and say "Flight Information Service", but that is an abbrogation of responsibility and duty of care - in my mind.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing to remember is that GAT is not the only user of airspace outside of Controlled Airspace and DAP has to try and satisfy everyone's 'need'.
BD
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.... the rest of the World must look at this small island with much bemusement and mirth as we once again show our inability to grasp standardisation and harmony.
Correct........
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Man, you guys make my head hurt with all this complication... You would LOVE the way that we do airspace around here, we treat it all pretty much the same as controllers other than Class B that is... No fuss, no muss <G>...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we´re at it: What exactly is the change of Abbot arrivals into STN and their subsequent removal again all about?
I must admit I find little explanation in the issued NOTAM?
I must admit I find little explanation in the issued NOTAM?