DFL 195+ UK airspace re-configuration
 

Oh what a joy .....

You thought you were confused ?

Today we have the jolly introduction of the all new super airspace DFL195 Class C division (with exceptions). :ugh:

As an example ..... pity the poor Flightline 146s climbing out of Scatsta for Aberdeen ... and the poor controllers trying to a) understand the new airspace b) apply the new airspace c) explain the new airspace.

Would the desk-monkeys who created this bugger's muddle care to come and plug in and see for themselves how difficult they have made the job ? No, thought not .. probably don't know what colour the current licence is ..... :D

In the space of 15 miles .. the 146 climbing to FL260 passes through Radar Control (in Sumburgh Zone), Radar Advisory (on the 3 miles of advisory route below FL195), Radar Information (as they leave the ADR and enter TRA8 - the military exemption to Class C airspace) above FL195, and then Radar Control as they climb above FL245 and into the 'safety' of class C airspcae again.

So, how do I tell them what service they are under ...

"In the next 15 miles you are under a
Radar Control/Advisory/Information/Control Service .... limited while I check through 15 pages of Supplementary Instruction just to see if I have understood correctly."

By which time of course .. they will be ready for descent into Aberdeen under a .... Radar Control/Information/Advisory/Control Service .....

Oh .. and that's not forgetting the other 8 aircraft on frequency at the time ... :D

Thanks for making a pi$$ easy job even easier .... :rolleyes:

You could have given a FIS to the traffic in the TRA.:) :) :)

I was wondering when the first post on this would be? Bet there will be more!

:E :E :E :sad: :E :E

I feel for the poor guys on Hurn who have to cope with this and their new airspace all on the same day

DFL 195 isn't much of an impact on civil en route. The Hurn folks were gagging to work traffic when the sectors went live at 3.30 this morning, only there wasn't any coming until 2 hours later :)

BD

Seems to be a bit of an impact from reading the first post on this thread does there not ??

One single route? As I wrote earlier, not much impact in fact pretty much zero for LACC, LTCC and MACC. :)

BD

p.s. I write as the NATS ATC transition manager for the change.

p.p.s. The solution was DAPs response to meet the european requirement for UK to comply with DFL195.

The N in NATS used to stand for National ..... but as long as the units providing a service only on Class C Airways are not affected, everything is fine then, and it's a success :)

A Class C Airway where half the route is blocked because gliders might or might not be flying right up to the edge. Apparently this is unsafe above FL195 but perfectly safe below that level ... duh ????

DFL195 was hailed as the UK complying with European SES and providing a common set of airspace, rules, and procedures across the continent. Except that the UK know better than everyone else and change it all again anyway to bring in their own rules and procedures. Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace being provided within Controlled Airspace .... the rest of the World must look at this small island with much bemusement and mirth as we once again show our inability to grasp standardisation and harmony.

There were certain imperatives as to why DAP went down the route it has, remember that its a 'joint' organisation. UK is not the only European country which fudges things to show compliance, as opposed to outright ignoring them as some do ;)

BD

Captain Mayday

The only difference I can see from before DFL195 introduction is that you gave a RIS from FL195 to FL245. If you had continued with RAS, there would have been no change in the services you had to provide on 14 March.

You made it difficult for yourself!

V/line,
unfortunately the decision was made long ago that we should not provide RAS unless on an advisory route(i believe a previous incident was the cause but i am prepared to be corrected).I agree with you though if you don't work outside CAS have class c airways and dont send aircraft direct very much then you won't have noticed much. HOWEVER it is not only 1 route.The problem we have here is that we provide services to the highlands and islands where there are no class c airways, only advisory routes which are now capped at 190 (195 not being allowed). Our customers used to file at levels above this where we were still able to provide RAS.
The half assedness of the situation is that although we have class C airspace, when the TRA's are active we are to treat the airspace like it is class G, for the majority of the day and only class c once the mil have gone home for tea and medals in the evening. yes it seems that once again we have bent over backwards to improve the service we offer our customers by bringing in controlled airspace and downgrading the radar service we provide in it!!! i look forward to the review in 6 months.
well done:ugh: :ugh: :D :D

Ooh well that's all right then .. no-one else matters ... ?

Not quite so simple as that BD. With the activation of TRAs (Monday-Friday 9-5) (ie.generally all the time we have traffic on Westcoast, Moray and Tay) we have several advisory routes that go in and out of Class C (the stubs) and Class G, and back again, plus the RAS/RIS level change at FL195.

The point I was trying to make that you so wittily dismiss is that we now have a ludicrous situation on several routes where the aircraft can have (depending on levels and time of day) up to 4 or 5 different service changes in the space of 15-50 miles.

It may have little impact on your hallowed sectors down south :hmm: , however, you may not know but there are legal implications (so we are told) for getting the type of service right. If I (while watching the other aircraft on frequency, because we do sometiems work more than one at a time) forget to change service at one of the 4 or 5 critical moments, and the military jets wheeching around (we also get a lot of those up here by the way) get too close and I'm on the 'wrong' type of service .... who do you think gets it in the neck at the subsequent inquiry?

The pilots for not noticing ? The fastjets for turning toward civil traffic ? The airspace desgners or transition managers for the shininess of their new ties?

Or the poor bugger with the licence ?

Out of interest which sectors do you work and did you by any chance come for a wee visit to Scottish to see the problems we have providing ATSOCAs in the frozen north ? You're welcome anytime. :E

:mad:

Exactly how O Learned One ?

I don't dictate what levels aircraft want to fly at or what Class of airspace the routes are made of.

But someone sat behind a desk tells me what services I am allowed or expected to provide in each Class of airspace. :ugh:

My hands are tied.

OK I could just cop out and say "Flight Information Service", but that is an abbrogation of responsibility and duty of care - in my mind.

I worked at ScOACC from 1992-1998, albeit as a Mil ATCO. You're pushing against an open door trying to persuade me of your difficulties with the fudge that DAP put in place. The point I was making earlier was that for the vast majority of GAT flights and civil ATSPs DFL195 is of little impact.
One thing to remember is that GAT is not the only user of airspace outside of Controlled Airspace and DAP has to try and satisfy everyone's 'need'.

BD

Correct........ ;)

Man, you guys make my head hurt with all this complication... You would LOVE the way that we do airspace around here, we treat it all pretty much the same as controllers other than Class B that is... No fuss, no muss <G>...

regards

Scott

That explains it then! :rolleyes:

Personally I blame Europe for this. We (the UK) didn't need nor want to drop below 245. DFL195 makes sense over the plethora of central European states; for those of us around the edges, it doesn't make sense.

It Is Making My Head Hurt !!!!!!!!!!!

While we´re at it: What exactly is the change of Abbot arrivals into STN and their subsequent removal again all about?

I must admit I find little explanation in the issued NOTAM?