DFL 195+ UK airspace re-configuration
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There hasn't been a change to the Abbot stars.
The AIP in error deleted the Abbot 1C, realised their error and then issued a NOTAM saying it was a mistake and that all flights should plan for the Abbot 1C. Some airlines missed the NOTAM and updated their FMS's with the Abbot 1D which is incorrect (its a non-rnav route only available below FL100).
Didn't affect anything really just had to explain a couple of times.
The AIP in error deleted the Abbot 1C, realised their error and then issued a NOTAM saying it was a mistake and that all flights should plan for the Abbot 1C. Some airlines missed the NOTAM and updated their FMS's with the Abbot 1D which is incorrect (its a non-rnav route only available below FL100).
Didn't affect anything really just had to explain a couple of times.
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ludicrous situation on several routes where the aircraft can have (depending on levels and time of day) up to 4 or 5 different service changes in the space of 15-50 miles.
Personally I blame Europe for this.
for the vast majority of GAT flights and civil ATSPs DFL195 is of little impact.
The institution of the DFL was invented more than 40 years back for a concept which was killed politically, but which is resuscitated from time to time, as if nothing has changed since 1960.
Either the artificial DFL should be abolished, or it should be included in an entirely new concept where aircraft can fly in upper airspace directly from end of SID to beginning of STAR in the whole of Europe, instead of being forced to remain within the old corridors, airways or ATS routes whatever they are called. That would be the new challenge where a DFL could be meaningful. The Mosaic project?
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an entirely new concept where aircraft can fly in upper airspace directly from end of SID to beginning of STAR in the whole of Europe, instead of being forced to remain within the old corridors, airways or ATS routes whatever they are called.
BD
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an entirely new concept where aircraft can fly in upper airspace directly from end of SID to beginning of STAR in the whole of Europe, instead of being forced to remain within the old corridors, airways or ATS routes whatever they are called.
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... and that is becaase they choose to shove the aircraft along narrow corridors and don't like going off-route. Just think of all that new Class C (including the off-route bits that have now appeared below the UARs) that no one is using!!
Touche.
Touche.
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Let me au contrair your au contrair!! The guidance is that mil controllers should work 3-4 tracks, there is no regulation.
As far as off-route is concerned, I agree that it isn't as simple as I previously suggested. However, take an example. Aircraft routeing NCL UMBEL are traditionally worked by LATCC(Mil) until they reach the upper air. Under the old system that made imminent sense as there was a significant proportion of Class G malarkey. Now, the aircraft are protected in the FL 195-245 bit as long as the follow the alignment of the UAR (ie they are outside a TRA). Common sense would dictate that London(Mil) stepped out of the equation and NCL did their business direct with MACC E. However, becuase the 195-245 bit is classed as off-route, MACC aren't allowed/keen to operate in there. Consequently, you still have London (Mil) providing ATS to GAT in airspace which is now safe.
As far as off-route is concerned, I agree that it isn't as simple as I previously suggested. However, take an example. Aircraft routeing NCL UMBEL are traditionally worked by LATCC(Mil) until they reach the upper air. Under the old system that made imminent sense as there was a significant proportion of Class G malarkey. Now, the aircraft are protected in the FL 195-245 bit as long as the follow the alignment of the UAR (ie they are outside a TRA). Common sense would dictate that London(Mil) stepped out of the equation and NCL did their business direct with MACC E. However, becuase the 195-245 bit is classed as off-route, MACC aren't allowed/keen to operate in there. Consequently, you still have London (Mil) providing ATS to GAT in airspace which is now safe.
Last edited by London Mil; 22nd Mar 2007 at 09:47.
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However, take an example. Aircraft routeing NCL UMBEL are traditionally worked by LATCC(Mil) until they reach the upper air. Under the old system that made imminent sense as there was a significant proportion of Class G malarkey. Now, the aircraft are protected in the FL 195-245 bit as long as the follow the alignment of the UAR (ie they are outside a TRA). Common sense would dictate that London(Mil) stepped out of the equation and NCL did their business direct with MACC E. However, becuase the 195-245 bit is classed as off-route, MACC aren't allowed/keen to operate in there. Consequently, you still have London (Mil) providing ATS to GAT in airspace which is now safe.
1 En-Route Operations ICAO defines these as operations conducted on published air routes, direct point-to-point operations between defined waypoints , or along great circle routes, which are other than take-off, landing, departure, arrival or terminal operations . This includes all transit flights outside published ATS routes in receipt of an ATS from either a civil or military ATS provider.
2 On-Route (ATS) This term is used routinely by ATC for coordination purposes within the UK. Civil/military aircraft are considered to be “On-route (ATS)” when flying along the alignment and within 5nm of the centre-line of published parameters of an upper ATS route (UAR) and other areas defined for the application of reduced coordination procedures.
3 Off-Route (ATS) This term is used routinely by ATC for coordination purposes within the UK; aircraft are considered to be “off-route (ATS)” when not complying with the conditions at paragraph 2.
The airspace may be 'safe' but its not an airway or the Upper ATS route UL602 so not On-route. To quote from the CAA paper:
1 Upper ATS Routes. Routes above FL245 will continue to be depicted as upper ATS routes embedded within Class C airspace.
2 Airways. Existing Class A and D airways between FL195 and FL245 will be re-designated as Class C airways (embedded within background Class C airspace when TRA not active).
3 Advisory Routes (ADR). The ADR route structure will be reviewed. Where there is no requirement for connectivity with Upper ATS Routes, ADRs will be notified with an upper vertical limit of FL195. Where connectivity with the ATS route structure above FL245 is required, Class C airways between FL195 and FL245 will be introduced.
Since CAA decided not to introduce a class C airway NCL - UMBEL nothing has changed for MACC.
BD
Last edited by BDiONU; 22nd Mar 2007 at 13:03.
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But civil controllers regularly work 10 - 20 tracks
Beady Eye
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So are the civil ANSPs failing to provide airlines with their desired routings due to not employing enough controllers? Three times as many controllers gives each with 3-7 tracks - about equivalent to military controllers who ARE able to offer the more direct routings. Surley they should do something about this...
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Sounds like yea olde Free Flight.
With today's ATC equipment and tools, as any civil controller applying direct routes during night time knows, it is only possible if you only have a handful of aircraft (I learn that military ATCO capacity is no more than three). When in the civil it gets more than a handful, the system reverts to 'normal procedure', i.e. the waistjacket of narrow corridors where the aircraft are shoved in search for conflicts with other aircraft.
Direct routing requires different working habits, more strategic planning fifteen minutes ahead using MTCD, or as it is called in UK iFACTS and in the US URET, to prevent sudden conflicts. Technically it requires a common shared database of actual traffic positions and good trajectory prediction, ideally connected to aircraft intent as available in the aircraft FMS. This is all technically feasible, if we want it.
although you could give direct tracks they still have to land in one place, imagine a railway system, you could have the lines running every which way but they've ALL got to terminate in a railway station)
It's funny btw how railway comparisons continue to influence the thinking of some ATC planners. I remember how in the seventies the then director of my ATC organisation fulminated against those comparisons, as if aircraft didn't have that extra dimension in space. The man had a very good understanding of technical progress for the benefit of ATC and created a very modern ATC system with a good arrival management system and elementary conflict detection. Railway system? no way, aircraft are not bound by fixed tracks, it's outdated ATC thinking which is constrained by fixed tracks between the ears.
First I'd heard of Mosaic so looked it up. Sounds like some sort of unofficial SESAR Project.
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Oh BD, you are being a little selective here. What, if anything, stops a civil controller from providing an off-route(ATS) service? Let me remind you - the only thing is that coordination protocols change. I understand it was the NATS units who couldn't get their beans in a row regarding how/whether they wanted off-route(ATS) status below 195.
PS. Thanks for the CAA definitions, I'm sure I've seen them somewhere before.
PPS. I actually think we both feel the same about this dogs dinner of a regulatory change. Roll on the 6 monthly review.
PS. Thanks for the CAA definitions, I'm sure I've seen them somewhere before.
PPS. I actually think we both feel the same about this dogs dinner of a regulatory change. Roll on the 6 monthly review.
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BD
At the end of the day,
DFL 195 was forced upon us by Europe and our government. We managed to put it off by 12 months but it was always going to happen.
Civil controllers might manage to work upwards of 10 tracks, but they are all on route, with separation built in from departure.
Military controllers get freecalls, prenotes from 2 or 3 different airfields, and the traffic follows it's own plan, not arbitrary lines in the sky.
DFL 195 was forced upon us by Europe and our government. We managed to put it off by 12 months but it was always going to happen.
Civil controllers might manage to work upwards of 10 tracks, but they are all on route, with separation built in from departure.
Military controllers get freecalls, prenotes from 2 or 3 different airfields, and the traffic follows it's own plan, not arbitrary lines in the sky.
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Lomon wrote
I would suggest that you do a wee bit more research on this .... ATC is bigger than tiresome oneupmanship between mil/civil.
Crossing airways, freecalls in the FIR, procedural clearances/releases, trying to co-ordinate with Boulmer , fast catchups, and more randomness than I ever experienced as an Allocator Yes, we do all that as well
Civil controllers might manage to work upwards of 10 tracks, but they are all on route, with separation built in from departure.
Crossing airways, freecalls in the FIR, procedural clearances/releases, trying to co-ordinate with Boulmer , fast catchups, and more randomness than I ever experienced as an Allocator Yes, we do all that as well
And not all civil controllers operate in regulated airspace; there are a lot of civil airports in class G with radar facilities operating commercial traffic, and they still handle 10 (or more) tracks at a time.