What do pilots do that 'irk' you?
Join Date: Sep 2001
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N R B, in most parts of the world it would be Raven two three, but in AirServices infinite wisdom they have decided that flight numbers will be grouped because I guess they were worried about the change from using aircraft registration to flight numbers a few years ago. Can't say flight numbers have been a problem where I work and at least half of our traffic is all from the one company, and during peak times probably more like 90 % of our traffic is from the one company, ie. Emirates 2, 12, 72, 412, 416 etc etc etc. To be honest here noone cares whether you group the numbers or not as long as the end result is the correct aircraft heard the instruction and read it back correctly. That is true for most things here though, the powers that be are interested in the end result, ie. kept apart and properly spaced, whereas in Australia it has always been more about how you do it, ie. did you use word perfect phraseology, ohhh did you put "to" in the descent instruction or not. Only place in the world I know of that "concurs" to a level change. Anyway different strokes for different folks.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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What irks me ... pilots who fail to brief themselves on the requirements of the route and destination that they are flying to. For example last night a European charter flight (operated by a respectable Western European national carrier, in fact it is generally the Western European national carriers we have the most trouble with) fails to report prior to the UAE FIR boundary for radar ident coming from Tehran FIR.
Not only does this add to my already busy workload by having to apply semi-procedural standards (if I applied full procedural in every case no one would get into Dubai) but he calls after the boundary and states that he is short of fuel and cannot hold. If they had called in earlier we could have given a slower a descent speed and advised him of possible delays for fuel planning (I am curious as to how they were short of fuel given the howling 120+knot tail wind we've had for the past week
).
Not only does this add to my already busy workload by having to apply semi-procedural standards (if I applied full procedural in every case no one would get into Dubai) but he calls after the boundary and states that he is short of fuel and cannot hold. If they had called in earlier we could have given a slower a descent speed and advised him of possible delays for fuel planning (I am curious as to how they were short of fuel given the howling 120+knot tail wind we've had for the past week
).
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After 28 years in the biz, it's going to take quite a lot to "irk" me. However, since you asked, what's up with that "fully established" bit the Euros are so fond of? You're busy vectoring for the parallels, turn left rurn right, go down slow down, when out of the blue you hear "Ahhhhh approach, Speedbird 95 is now fully established on the localizer 24R". 
I KNOW! I can see you! If you go through the loc you can be sure I'll be all over you in a second! It has to be the most redundant, most useless bit of information you can throw at me. I bet LHR could increase their arrival rate if they didn't have to listen to this stuff! 
I KNOW! I can see you! If you go through the loc you can be sure I'll be all over you in a second! It has to be the most redundant, most useless bit of information you can throw at me. I bet LHR could increase their arrival rate if they didn't have to listen to this stuff!
Join Date: Jun 2003
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A little off thread, but a quick thank you to all the ATC guys and girls working the airspace around Sydney for the last couple of days (125.0, 128.4, 129.8, 132.35, SYD Approach, Departures and Director etc).
The weather has been crap and no doubt it's been hard work for you as well as us, but in my last couple of days banging around in a turboprop your skill and patience has been appreciated. Stacks of diversion requests and so on all handled professionally and with relatively small delays! Job well done!
Cheers
P.S. Sorry if I missed anyone!
The weather has been crap and no doubt it's been hard work for you as well as us, but in my last couple of days banging around in a turboprop your skill and patience has been appreciated. Stacks of diversion requests and so on all handled professionally and with relatively small delays! Job well done!
Cheers
P.S. Sorry if I missed anyone!
Join Date: Jan 2006
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1. WX Diversions: If there is WX, everyone is diverting - a long explanation is not required - "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE REQUIRE HDG 220 FOR WX" "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE APPROVED" - simple.
Please refrain from" "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE, AH, WE GOT SOME CELLS PAINTING AT ABOUT TWO TO THREE O'CLOCK, AND UH, LOOKS LIKE WE ARE PROBABLY GOING TO NEED RIGHT ABOUT 5 MILES FOR THE NEXT, OH, PROBABLY THRITY TO FORTY TRACK MILES, AND THEN WE WILL BE REQUESTING DIRECT TO TOOTHPICK WHEN CLEAR OF THE WEATHER, AND CAN WE EXPECT TO GET A HIGHER LEVEL SOON?" - so tempting to reply "SAY AGAIN" except you have just ruined my inbound sequence and there are now about 3 or 4 aircraft waiting to jam up my frequency. I realise you think 1 Aircraft at a time - we have to think about up to 15, and if we have been working the traffic for the last couple of hours we KNOW there is weather there. Be succin.t and listen out.
2. TCAS. It's great for what it is designed to do. It is NOT a Radar.
Don't try to be an ATC - and we wont tell you how to fly your airplane. Worst example I witnessed was a pilot complain (to the point of putting in a scathing written report) that ATC were aiming him at crossing traffic on departure! He was in fact correct, in a sense - that is exactly how we separate a tight cross - aim directly at where the conflict traffic is - because by the time you get there, he won't be! Problem is, TCAS doesn't seem to see the relative position like a radar screen. This pilot swore he was heading directly at the traffic (No RA or even TA). Radar replay show passing no closer than 5 miles - and we can use 3.
Apart from that, we love youse all.
Please refrain from" "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE, AH, WE GOT SOME CELLS PAINTING AT ABOUT TWO TO THREE O'CLOCK, AND UH, LOOKS LIKE WE ARE PROBABLY GOING TO NEED RIGHT ABOUT 5 MILES FOR THE NEXT, OH, PROBABLY THRITY TO FORTY TRACK MILES, AND THEN WE WILL BE REQUESTING DIRECT TO TOOTHPICK WHEN CLEAR OF THE WEATHER, AND CAN WE EXPECT TO GET A HIGHER LEVEL SOON?" - so tempting to reply "SAY AGAIN" except you have just ruined my inbound sequence and there are now about 3 or 4 aircraft waiting to jam up my frequency. I realise you think 1 Aircraft at a time - we have to think about up to 15, and if we have been working the traffic for the last couple of hours we KNOW there is weather there. Be succin.t and listen out.
2. TCAS. It's great for what it is designed to do. It is NOT a Radar.
Don't try to be an ATC - and we wont tell you how to fly your airplane. Worst example I witnessed was a pilot complain (to the point of putting in a scathing written report) that ATC were aiming him at crossing traffic on departure! He was in fact correct, in a sense - that is exactly how we separate a tight cross - aim directly at where the conflict traffic is - because by the time you get there, he won't be! Problem is, TCAS doesn't seem to see the relative position like a radar screen. This pilot swore he was heading directly at the traffic (No RA or even TA). Radar replay show passing no closer than 5 miles - and we can use 3.
Apart from that, we love youse all.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Topzalp
Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three
Even in Aus, the use of the "Group Format" is not mandatory.
AIP Gen 3.4 ( 4.16.3). http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...n/3_4_1-24.pdf
If you read (4.16.4) go back to (4.16.3)
I had this argument with the illustrious Safey Cell in Brisbane when they tried to stitch me up.
Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three
Even in Aus, the use of the "Group Format" is not mandatory.
AIP Gen 3.4 ( 4.16.3). http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...n/3_4_1-24.pdf
If you read (4.16.4) go back to (4.16.3)
I had this argument with the illustrious Safey Cell in Brisbane when they tried to stitch me up.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Hey S T,
In enroute, we actually want the pilot to tell us where the weather is and how long he will divert for and when he thinks he can go to another point on his flight clear of the wx.
I suppose in a busy radar environment like approach, long transmissions are what irks you most.
In enroute, we actually want the pilot to tell us where the weather is and how long he will divert for and when he thinks he can go to another point on his flight clear of the wx.
I suppose in a busy radar environment like approach, long transmissions are what irks you most.
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Point taken.
However, if I want to know I will ask - as you elude to, frequency time is at a premium in TS WX - and some of the readback (and cross-boundary coord) requirments don't help.
However, if I want to know I will ask - as you elude to, frequency time is at a premium in TS WX - and some of the readback (and cross-boundary coord) requirments don't help.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Nice pick up goose. Certainly does say that it is not compulsory. Sounds like something my training officer SHOULD have taught me . Wouldn't let me cut and paste it. Did the gestapo really try and stick you with that? Was it during the 'Fill your boots' affair?
. Wouldn't let me cut and paste it. Did the gestapo really try and stick you with that? Was it during the 'Fill your boots' affair?
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very interesting thread. for all of you atco's some of the strange reactions you have are due to the carrier's main airports habits. for example alot of mainland european (and others) atc ask you to report established on the ils. maybe after doing this on every sector during a few weeks, you get used to anticipating it and doing it even when not asked to. the controlling habits are clearly different between different countries and even regions.
another point, tcas is very difficult to use for situational awareness, you hardly ever know (in imc) if that traffic 1000' above is converging, on the same track or whatever. so if we ask for a climb with that traffic displayed maybe we're only saying "requesting further climb when clear of the traffic above us which we don't know if it's preceding us, being overtaken, or just crossing our route". it' sjust shorter (ie r/t congestion) to say "requesting further climb".
but a few of our colleagues are to blame for some of your reactions. in france we call them 'seigneurs de l'atlantique' which translates to 'lords of the atlantic' in reference to what they think they are.
safe flying
seb
another point, tcas is very difficult to use for situational awareness, you hardly ever know (in imc) if that traffic 1000' above is converging, on the same track or whatever. so if we ask for a climb with that traffic displayed maybe we're only saying "requesting further climb when clear of the traffic above us which we don't know if it's preceding us, being overtaken, or just crossing our route". it' sjust shorter (ie r/t congestion) to say "requesting further climb".
but a few of our colleagues are to blame for some of your reactions. in france we call them 'seigneurs de l'atlantique' which translates to 'lords of the atlantic' in reference to what they think they are.
safe flying
seb
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In some countries it seems to be very common to request a/c to report loc established. "xxx, turn left heading 120 cleared for ILS approach runway 15, report loc established." And when you get used to report "on loc" at your home airport, it's easily done at the other airports even without a request.
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Telling me you're "fully" ready. Other than "not", what other type of ready is there?!
Do not ATC ever ask us "Confirm you will be fully reaching on reaching ..." ?
Do not ATC ever ask us "Confirm you will be fully reaching on reaching ..." ?
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WRT the 'fully ready' thing, I agree with Fly Bhoy, there are seemingly quite a few different types of 'ready'.
There are many many cases of doing Delivery and an a/c calls ready. I look out the window, and they've still got steps attached, no tug etc etc. Some even admit it! "Delivery, ABC123 is ready for push, we just need a tug and ground crew."
That's why some of us tend to say 'report fully ready' so there's no doubt.
What else irks?
Crews who think we have the time, or inclination, to show favouritism.
Crews who think that the whole airfield should stop just so they can (try to) make it out on the +10 on their slot time.
Crews who accept a late landing clearance and then ring the tower to complain.
Crews who think they can do GMC better than you...Sure, they have some decent ideas on the odd occasion, but it strangely always seems to benefit them to the detriment of all the other a/c - "Ground, if they did pushed long, and then that 757 went round that way, we could taxi now..."
There are many many cases of doing Delivery and an a/c calls ready. I look out the window, and they've still got steps attached, no tug etc etc. Some even admit it! "Delivery, ABC123 is ready for push, we just need a tug and ground crew."
That's why some of us tend to say 'report fully ready' so there's no doubt.
What else irks?
Crews who think we have the time, or inclination, to show favouritism.
Crews who think that the whole airfield should stop just so they can (try to) make it out on the +10 on their slot time.
Crews who accept a late landing clearance and then ring the tower to complain.
Crews who think they can do GMC better than you...Sure, they have some decent ideas on the odd occasion, but it strangely always seems to benefit them to the detriment of all the other a/c - "Ground, if they did pushed long, and then that 757 went round that way, we could taxi now..."
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Hey D.P.
Sorry, but I have to agree with ****zu. Last week with the Wx diversions and Willy Training exercise it was a nightmare. All I want from the pilot is "which direction, how far and for how long". They're on radar and all I really need to know is who to tell and who he needs to miss (Like you, I'm doing en-route too).
Although, with diversions over the next couple of days, the R/T seemed less verbose ...... or was I getting used to it???
Sorry, but I have to agree with ****zu. Last week with the Wx diversions and Willy Training exercise it was a nightmare. All I want from the pilot is "which direction, how far and for how long". They're on radar and all I really need to know is who to tell and who he needs to miss (Like you, I'm doing en-route too).
Although, with diversions over the next couple of days, the R/T seemed less verbose ...... or was I getting used to it???
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C/S
Been mentioned already, but then once again: Please Please Please use your callsign! Even when you're about to switch frequency - I hate it when someone is only saying:
"Roger, 118.475"
Thanks a lot...
"Roger, 118.475"
Thanks a lot...
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I get a little anoyed when pilots omit the words "Flight Level" in a clearance where the FL starts with a 2...
i.e : Descend FL260, level abeam EEL...
-roger, descending two six zero...
For all I know, he'll be descending to FL060 ( desc. to six zero ). So, I go back in with - Confirm FLIGHT LEVEL 260...
-affirm, two six zero...
Of course this only applies when descending traffic, hard to climb to 060, when you're passing FL245...but even then I'd like to hear the words
i.e : Descend FL260, level abeam EEL...
-roger, descending two six zero...
For all I know, he'll be descending to FL060 ( desc. to six zero ). So, I go back in with - Confirm FLIGHT LEVEL 260...
-affirm, two six zero...
Of course this only applies when descending traffic, hard to climb to 060, when you're passing FL245...but even then I'd like to hear the words
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Nuckinfuts,
As an OS aisle 3 I'd like you to come to my office on Monday!
Just kidding.
Looks like this old dinosaur of a controller is just going to have to disagree with you both. The point is, you, as an enroute controller, need to know the pilots intentions, especially with regard to weather diversions, so you can do your best to ensure separation.
I say again, your irk is that the transmission is overly looong. You need the detail, just said more succinctly.
As an OS aisle 3 I'd like you to come to my office on Monday!
Just kidding.
Looks like this old dinosaur of a controller is just going to have to disagree with you both. The point is, you, as an enroute controller, need to know the pilots intentions, especially with regard to weather diversions, so you can do your best to ensure separation.
I say again, your irk is that the transmission is overly looong. You need the detail, just said more succinctly.
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NuckinFuts,
Often enough to stay current and recent, be the Technical Specialist for Byron Group, do the odd check on other Byron controllers, keep my OS Aisle 2 & 3 endorsements current, and do the occasional AD.
Now you know which dinosaur I am!
Often enough to stay current and recent, be the Technical Specialist for Byron Group, do the odd check on other Byron controllers, keep my OS Aisle 2 & 3 endorsements current, and do the occasional AD.
Now you know which dinosaur I am!