What do pilots do that 'irk' you?

[foo fighting]

re the above post, especially agree with the two/to six zero comment.
i work in the london tma and the reply "...... climb up two (or is it) to seven zero " seems to be fairly commonplace. cant ever see what the problem is with standard r/t myself, much safer, notably for you folk flying out of SS and GW under LAM and BNN where a climb to 270/280 instead 70/80 results in moderate to heavy avoiding action !
other than that - PLEASE USE YOUR CALLSIGNS AT ALL TIMES, many thanks

[Greek God]

Two Aircraft same route different levels similar longitudinal track:
Radar "ac 1 Change to XXX frequency yyyy.y" followed by same for ac 2
New freq busy & waiting to get a word in Just about to key Mic when
"ac 2 maintaining Fl etc etc Grr
Given descent clearance to a level with no info about opposite traffic 1000below.(TCAS not initially indicating any traffic) I've now taken to putting in constraint point minus 5nm so as to ease the ROD to less than 1500ft/min by the clearance point to try & avoid TAs.

[anotherthing]

Greek God

Whats so bad about TAs?? Nuisance RAs are a bugger, I'll grant you, but TA's at least get you paying attention in a busy environment, and maybe stop some of the less professional aircrew from badgering for further climb/descent when it is obviously no possible!! TCAS is there for several reasons, giving the pilot a vague idea of what is going on (i.e. situational awareness) is one of them. Altering RODs manually from what you have been given to avoid TA's makes it sound as if the "Traffic Traffic" call disturbs you from checking your share prices and seems like increasing workload for no reason!!

To give every A/C traffic info when giving it a climb/descent is totally unworkable - do you know how many A/C on frequency at one given point will be under that situation? Pilots already complain about R/T congestion!! You are mainly in a known traffic environment - we do not have to issue traffic info whatsoever - it's a nicety if we have time.

I remember being trained in the simulator at west drayton before commencing live training - I was picked up for giving too much traffic information in a known traffic environment. I was told I would not keep up with traffic or R/T if I continued to do so.

A tip for you if you fly from an airport out of the London TMA (or any other TMA for that matter). Next time you are given a climb or descent, expect there to be traffic above or below your cleared level. More often than not, there will be.

A visit to a centre or airport for pilots may also be in order - a lot easier to arrange than a trip on the flight deck

[Denti]

What i find a bit puzzling is how much ATCOs seem to think we can use TCAS. TCAS comes in a lot of different varieties with a viewable range of 4NM and only +-1000ft up to 80NM and close to +-10.000ft. So someone might not be able to see the traffic he should be clearly able to see on his TCAS display. Another thing is that TCAS can be U/S for up to 10 days within europe, so you do not know if it is working at all.

Next thing is a basic knowledge thing. TCAS is a display of a situation relative to your own position, which might be moving by several hundred knots as well. Lateral resolution is extremely poor as the antenna only uses 8 different sectors to come up with a rough idea where the traffic is. Added to that the only other vector information we get is climbing or descending, but without a value. No track/course history or vector is available, need to have ADS-B for that. Even worse, TCAS can deliberately choose to not to display a target if it deems it unimportant, most systems have only a limited capacity of targets they can display (but they can track more than they can display).

So judging any situation by TCAS alone is very dangerous and something we shouldn't even try to do. So, should i think about that guy that is displayed at 15 NM a couple levels above or below (if it is displayed that is)? Nope, i should'nt. It isn't my job, thats what you guys get payed for and what you have your equipment for, we dont have that.

Just a little ramble here

Oh, what i dont like about ATCOS is especially here in germany being told to maintain high speed at all costs, planning your descent accordingly just to get told by the next sector to slow down to minimum clean putting me 3000 or more feet above my glidepath for that speed.

[Greek God]

Anotherthing
On three occasions I have had RAs resulting from being cleared from high level to an intermediate level with no info. As I am sure you are aware we normally descend in VNAV so with the rates of descent generated opposite direction traffic 180 out will go from nothing to a TA to an RA fairly rapidly and it is for that reason I now moderate my rate of descent (which is in fact a requirement in RVSM airspace) and it is specifically that traffic that I would wish prior knowledge. When climbing it is not a problem to reduce the ROC but in my experience it is rarely done on descent. I concur with what you say within the LTMA which really needs its own set of rules, and I am not talking about a descent of a few thousand feet or crossing traffic.
I have visited Drayton and several local ATC units how many famil flights have you done?
PS Thanks for the tip

[anotherthing]

Denti -

I think the problem ATCOs have is not that we think TCAS is better than it is - it's the way a small handful of pilots seem to think that TCAS gives them an idea of the big picture. It is instilled in us ATCOs from a very early stage how innaccurate TCAS can be in the horizontal plane and also the other limitations it has


Point taken about the speed - we often get A/C doing in exceaa of 300kts (as instructed by previous sector) only to have to tell them "when level reduce to holding speed". We find it annoying too!!

[Charlie Zulu]

A certain ATCO was sooooo tempted to post "breathe" in reply to the question.

Not sure why she doesn't want me to breathe. What this and the scene with the chair on Casino Royale.

[pogmothoin]

Pilots who think that speed instructions are optional

here here.. you are not the only one in the sky matey!!!

[Asda]

Personally the thing that 'irks' me most is a pilot who dials up a frequency, pushes the button and starts talking without listening in, even for a second or two, first. This gets pretty annoying after a while. Just bear in mind if the frequency you're on is quiet, the next one may not be.
And if you can't get in because the frquencies congested, then that's a safety issue and I think you should consider filing.

[choclit runway]

Hear hear Asda.

You beat me to it on that one... On a similar line when you have issued instructions and take your finger off the ptt and another a/c jumps in before the other one can give a readback... Lack of situational awareness, genuine mistake or sheer ignorance?

And...

A/C calling ground first contact..."ABC123. Information received for clearance."

What the are you meant to do with a call like that. Read the AIP and give us the information as indicated (information received not enough... ATIS letter or QNH required!). It will save several transmissions while we pull your teeth for information and keep both parties as happy as pigs in pooh!

And...

Auto-braking for a r/w exit that is notam'd and ATIS'd as closed then sounding put out when told to 'expedite' to the next exit.

Finally (although I could go on)

If you dont have an aerodrome ground chart, instead of stopping at the first intersection while you figure out where to go (or worse, taking a wrong turn), just be honest and ask for a progressive taxi... We really dont object to giving this if the alternative is a lost a/c on the airfield.

I know the golden rule is 'Aviate, navigate, communicate' being a PPL, but good com's with ATC really can help you do the first two a whole lot more effectively IMHO.

Great thread... Keep up the good work!!! We need more of this sort of stuff.

Anybody ever posted a similar thread on the Flight deck forums for pilots to do the same to us? If so can some-one post a link?

Regards to all.

[ConwayB]

What do Air Traffickers do that irk pilots?

Hello one and all,

As the thread initiator, thank you to all who have contributed. I will be collating these responses and summarising them and presenting them as part of my CRM to pilots. Hopefully, this will be a start in educating us all.

Choclit Runway asked for a similar thread from a pilot's perspective towards Air Traffickers... so I may start them.

I noticed that most of the contributors to this thread are from the UK or Middle East. Regardless, the lessons are still the same.

I will post a thread on the Downunder and Godzone aviation forums... but I am more than happy to do the same on other forums.

Why not check it out and give us pilots your responses to our prickles.

Cheers
Conway

(PS. As an aside, and in response to some responses to this thread, let me tell you that when I was a Chinook Squadron 2-I-C, I would take great pains to take the ATC personnel up in the aircraft in the jumpseat at various times so they could see the job from our end... and I would organise for our pilots and loadmasters to spend an hour or so in the Tower or Approach control so we could see your job from your end. It was invaluable and if any pilots are out there, take up the opportunity to visit the ATC centres if possible.)

[choclit runway]

Conway

Top job!!!

And to any middle east based flight crew get in contact with your base ATC. You will receive a warm welcome and we can thrash out some of the above while you see the job from our side.

Warm regards

Choclit.

[tournesol]

pilots and controllers who say height when they mean altitude.

[ATCOJ30]

Good thread. Agree that constructive pilot gripes about ATC would also be very useful please.

What do I find irksome after 30 years+ in the job? (Aerodrome/Approach/ and Radar in UK and Middle East)...

....pilots who take for ever to line-up and roll, having told me that they are ready for take off, knowing full-well there's traffic coming down the approach.
If you want another minute or two at the hold, please tell me.

.... pilots who call for push-back and start onto a live taxiway, having omitted to tell me that they weren't actually ready for this or there's no tug attached. (Thanks guys - that's just sterilised the taxiway for everyone else to use).

.... pilots who know they'll need to use all the CTOT tolerance (which is for my use) and who still dawdle about. If you can't make the CTOT realistically - TELL ME please!

....pilots who "have a problem" but won't tell me what it is - for fear of someone listening in maybe? If you think you have a problem to which I may need to respond urgently, maybe with the RFFS or just by rearranging the traffic pattern, please tell me.

....pilots who go on PPRUNE and whinge about regional airport ATC, like we're some sort of lesser-beings who aren't as sharp as our colleagues at the major airports. 'Same job but we just have different ways of making it work. And many of us at regionals may well have done our time at the busy places.

....pilots who expect ATC to "cut corners" (PPRUNE cdomment again). No way.Would you expect me to ask you to cut corners when you fly?

All of which said, these sort of things happen relatively seldom, thankfully.

[Duff Man]

Of all the annoyances, probably the MOST would have to be attitude or tone of voice that a subset of pilots belonging to widebody aircraft fleets of an Australian airline occasionally employ.

Politeness and professionalism can go a long way to achieving a desired flight trajectory result. Conceitedness, sarcasm, and condescension will often end up in a little off-radio payback.

You and your aircraft can either comply (OK, sometimes with a bit of serious work) or not with late changes to clearances. Inform us if there is doubt or difficulty by all means but keep it to the point.

In response to the D&G post about TOT mil missions, sounds like the tower weren't aware it was a tactical flight? Priorities should have been changed in that case.

And another comment about a 737 going round behind a slow DASH 8 - HAHAHA, sorry for the 73 but Q-group DASH 8s are like a '172 from 4 miles now. They take up 1.5 arrival slots since changes to their stabilised approach rules.

Long SIDs and STARs, so what? ATC are actually chastised for cancelling what "Industry asked for". The efficiency part of oz ATC has long gone, get your managers informed and perhaps the bean counters will see the false economies in the TMA.

[ConwayB]

More thanks and other forums

Hi guys and girls,

I have posted the same thread on the D and G Aviation points and also Rotorheads (because I'm primarily a RW pilot) so why not pay them a visit and contribute.

ATCOJ30 - that's some great stuff. Thanks for that.

Duff Man (love your name, by the way) - thanks also. With regard to the TOT mission (if you were referring to my example), there's a local procedure for flight plans in place at TVL used by the resident Army unit so notifiying about priorities is not normally done. Our TOT was factored into our timing along with a short delay for ATC clearance... but the delay was much longer than expected.

The longest delay I have experienced whilst 'turning and burning' and waiting for my take off clearance has been 40 minutes (I kid you not!),

Burning AVTUR at 1600 lbs/hr whilst on the ground meant we were then short of fuel and had to shutdown. It wasn't ATC's fault per se... but due to other mil traffic (F18s) and the RPT scrum at that time of day, as well as wake turbulence delays and the gaggle of lighties, it was a long time to hold.

It's frustrating when we can sneak out of the terminal area at 100' AGL clear of any active runways and clear of approach/departure routes... but aren't allowed to. AAUGH!

[Tarq57]

Tell the truth there's not much that pilots do that seriously irks me. The no. 1 annoyance - simply because it happens fairly often - is calling up and going straight into the transmission without checking that I'm actually listening (or that someone else was about to read something back) first.
Please please please (rt101:establishing contact) "XXtwr this is XYZ." "XYZ XXtwr go ahead (or whatever)" If no reply is immediately forthcoming, we're on the phone to the centre, talking to each other, sending a weather report etc. Or sometimes making a cup of tea. This isn't usually too critical and mostly the worst result is likely to be that you'll have to repeat your message. But I've been involved in a situation where it resulted in a go-round because the frequency was jammed. And plenty of other similar events.
The no. 2, because it also happens too frequently would be someone saying they are ready immediate TO and then dawdling. Those folk are ruining it for everybody else. I know a few ATCOs that simply will not make much effort to move traffic when runway separation might be tight, because they've been bitten in the past.
But generally, at least where I work, the relationship is overall extremely good and there are only occasional gripes.

[wizad]

i wasnt going to add my two cents worth here, but after this morning my frustration rose to all new levels.

why oh why do pilots check in,followed seconds later with:
'standing by for further climb/descent'
my reply ' further in so many miles, traffic climbing/descending to a thousand feet above below you, direction range etc....'
and the..... 'roger, we have him on tcas'

so why ask if you clearly know where the traffic is? especially when passing under a busy london stack......

do you think we keep you high/low for fun? if that was our game we wouldnt last long and the london tma will grind to a standstill.


rant over.

w

[89 steps to heaven]

For me, it is the lack of communication of intentions, especially with training aircraft. We have lot of very sophisticated equipment in the Tower, telephone, fax, coffee machine, etc, but the crystal ball always seems to be on the fritz.

Working in a non-radar Tower that carries out a lot of training, help us to be able to give you what you want. A couple of moments thinking time is always appreciated. Notifying of a touch and go requirement on final can cause a problem as the controller may not have time to properly assess the risk, therefore touch and go not available.

As a lot of the previous post have already indicated, talk to us, and we will do our best to accommodate your request.

Also, where possible, visit an ATC facility. It is amazing how much can be achieved over a cuppa from both sides. I am still learning after 25+ years in the job and expect to do so until I pull stumps.

[normally right blank]

"- Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three"
Somebody, please explain the "grouped call sign method".
In this part of the world it would be "Raven two three".