Joining Controlled Airspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 930
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From: United Kingdom
Joining Controlled Airspace
Launched out of BZZ in a transport a/c(Brize Norton) the other day. On calling London with position & height etc. Got reply "Thank you" Now could not get a word in edgways as controller swamped. So carried on as per flight plan. So I guess I joined controlled airspace without permission. BUT would the controller have been happy for me to turn away 5nm before MALBY and headed off on my own?
AS it was we had been given loads of avoiding action by BZZ before being handed over.
So Questions
Did we join without permission
Why didn't the controller give us joining clearance.(Note nothing was said about what I did)
Is it safe for the sector to be so busy that communication is impossible.
Does it make a difference that we were in a 200ton a/c
Food for thought
AS it was we had been given loads of avoiding action by BZZ before being handed over.
So Questions
Did we join without permission
Why didn't the controller give us joining clearance.(Note nothing was said about what I did)
Is it safe for the sector to be so busy that communication is impossible.
Does it make a difference that we were in a 200ton a/c
Food for thought
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 342
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From: where should i be today????
this has to be a wind up thread starter but i'll bite all the same.
Since BZN was your departure aerodrome and within 10 mins flying time of your joining point MALBY, you would have received pre-fly clearance.
Was it not read to you on taxy.
did you not ask for it
never mind it will be easier in 2012 when the guys from south of the M4 will be with you to teach you what to do
ps if you are a mil pilot and the wx is good - take RIS or FIS it cuts out the detours
Since BZN was your departure aerodrome and within 10 mins flying time of your joining point MALBY, you would have received pre-fly clearance.
Was it not read to you on taxy.
did you not ask for it
never mind it will be easier in 2012 when the guys from south of the M4 will be with you to teach you what to do
ps if you are a mil pilot and the wx is good - take RIS or FIS it cuts out the detours
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 446
Likes: 3
From: solent-on-sea
"Since BZN was your departure aerodrome and within 10 mins flying time of your joining point MALBY, you would have received pre-fly clearance".
What if that was "remain outside CAS, call for join on 123.45"?
What if that was "remain outside CAS, call for join on 123.45"?
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: South East
Thats simple. You remain outside controlled airspace until clearence issued. If you can't get a word in, then you must remain outside.
The reason you can't get a word in is that its probably too busy to get you in!
The reason you can't get a word in is that its probably too busy to get you in!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,295
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From: Hants
Ice Pack -
If you have no clearance, you do not join CAS - flight plan in the system or not.
If this happens again, why not contact Brize on one of the other boxes and tell them your predicament - ask the Twr Sup to speak to London if it is so bad.
Gotta be better than effectively blundering into CAS. The fact you were in a 200T A/C matters nought..... one of many in the airspace you wish to join, most with fare paying soft civvy passengers who would be most disgruntled at having the G and Ts spilleds as the crew complied with avoiding action to miss you!!
P.S. - if all the controller said was 'thank you' then
a. turning 5 miles before airways would be correct course of action, and
b. The controller would not have cared as it seems they did not even offer you a FIS, never mind RIS or RAS!
If you have no clearance, you do not join CAS - flight plan in the system or not.
If this happens again, why not contact Brize on one of the other boxes and tell them your predicament - ask the Twr Sup to speak to London if it is so bad.
Gotta be better than effectively blundering into CAS. The fact you were in a 200T A/C matters nought..... one of many in the airspace you wish to join, most with fare paying soft civvy passengers who would be most disgruntled at having the G and Ts spilleds as the crew complied with avoiding action to miss you!!
P.S. - if all the controller said was 'thank you' then
a. turning 5 miles before airways would be correct course of action, and
b. The controller would not have cared as it seems they did not even offer you a FIS, never mind RIS or RAS!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
IcePack
London [Swanwick] have your flight plan. Brize ring the London sector on a direct line when you are active and you will be given a "MALBY" join as this is standard procedure. That is in effect your joining clearance. You will follow whatever procedure and instructions are given by Brize until you are transfered to the London Freq [normally 134.750] and on the appropriate London SSR code.......normally selected with the initial clearance because when you take-off the London computer automatically activates the flight as soon as it "sees" you. Normal join level is FL80, but can be changed tactically. Brize and London have an excellent working relationship and the transfer process for both in and out traffic is normally problem free.
The sector you join is Sector 23 [called Bristol sector]. It is normally joined to at least one other sector due staff shortage...normally with Sector 5 [Brecon sector]. Sometimes....and for a variety of reasons such as time of day or chronic staff shortage or poor supervision.....several other sectors are joined on as well. Despite many safety awareness and customer service guidelines, there is a definite trend towards frequency saturation. What is the cure? Easy....complain about the R/T congestion as soon as possible so that the tapes can be impounded and investigated.......or do nothing and lump it!
London [Swanwick] have your flight plan. Brize ring the London sector on a direct line when you are active and you will be given a "MALBY" join as this is standard procedure. That is in effect your joining clearance. You will follow whatever procedure and instructions are given by Brize until you are transfered to the London Freq [normally 134.750] and on the appropriate London SSR code.......normally selected with the initial clearance because when you take-off the London computer automatically activates the flight as soon as it "sees" you. Normal join level is FL80, but can be changed tactically. Brize and London have an excellent working relationship and the transfer process for both in and out traffic is normally problem free.
The sector you join is Sector 23 [called Bristol sector]. It is normally joined to at least one other sector due staff shortage...normally with Sector 5 [Brecon sector]. Sometimes....and for a variety of reasons such as time of day or chronic staff shortage or poor supervision.....several other sectors are joined on as well. Despite many safety awareness and customer service guidelines, there is a definite trend towards frequency saturation. What is the cure? Easy....complain about the R/T congestion as soon as possible so that the tapes can be impounded and investigated.......or do nothing and lump it!
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 930
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
055166K,
Thank you that explains something. Note to all you others the way our clearance was worded it was not as clear as it might have been. but yes that is why I continued. I just did not expect the "Standard phrase" thank you and then bedlam. Just made me wonder if I was really cleared to join. Normally I would have transmitted "Confirm cleared to join controled airspace" but was unable to.
Oh and I'm not new to Brize.
Ho Hum!
Thank you that explains something. Note to all you others the way our clearance was worded it was not as clear as it might have been. but yes that is why I continued. I just did not expect the "Standard phrase" thank you and then bedlam. Just made me wonder if I was really cleared to join. Normally I would have transmitted "Confirm cleared to join controled airspace" but was unable to.
Oh and I'm not new to Brize.
Ho Hum!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
From: Hants, UK
When was the last time either 055166k or Not Long Now filled in an open report concerning frequency congestion? What happened?
When was the last time anyone refused an 'early go' because of the possibility of frequency congestion? Really?
Edited to say: I suppose I could answer part of the first question by typing that numbers and letter combination into STAR!
When was the last time anyone refused an 'early go' because of the possibility of frequency congestion? Really?
Edited to say: I suppose I could answer part of the first question by typing that numbers and letter combination into STAR!
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
Likes: 368
From: Wildest Surrey
On the evidence, it seems the controller didn't give you anything positive, they should have either said 'confirming clear to join cas' or 'remain clear'.
055166Ks remarks do not hold valid for joiners closer to the LTMA at (for instance) CPT; they will be given a 'remain outside and for joining clearance contact London Control on [freq]' even when departure is less than 10 min from joining.
055166Ks remarks do not hold valid for joiners closer to the LTMA at (for instance) CPT; they will be given a 'remain outside and for joining clearance contact London Control on [freq]' even when departure is less than 10 min from joining.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
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There are too many controlled airspace infringements where pilots have been expecting clearance to join, not got it but joined anyway. Looking at the figures from last year, there were 41 instances. Please, please do not accept an ambiguous clearance. It could end in disaster.
Regards
VL
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
Likes: 6
From: southampton,hampshire,england
chevvron
respected colleague and ppruner
just to clarify....what we say to Brize on the direct telephone line is not what is given to the aircraft.....we use an agreed and understood abbreviation called a "MALBY 80". This translates to "join controlled airspace 5 miles north of MALBY at FL80".....not unlike a kind of SID. I believe that Brize give a CHEDWORTH departure in conjunction with this [I think]. The traffic is under Brize control until it is transfered to London as it approaches the edge of CAS.
Anything out of Lyneham climbs to FL70 on a SIREN departure [in the MALBY area], and may have to climb in the hold until we can be sure it will make FL180 by KENET [if eastbound] in order to jump London TMA traffic.
The "Remain outside" option you mention is absolutely correct for some circumstances.....for example it may be the only option for a Gloucester[Staverton] joiner if no procedural solution is possible, but a radar solution will be.
eyeinthe sky
another respected ppruner
my series of safety recommendations on kamikaze bandboxing and crap customer service delivery caused by 90% R/T loading gained second prize in the recent iPOD competition. Don't believe for one minute that all controllers hold the same high level of professional ethics that you and I do. I'm left with the feeling that I'm the only one who actually read the last copy of "Safety Matters".
respected colleague and ppruner
just to clarify....what we say to Brize on the direct telephone line is not what is given to the aircraft.....we use an agreed and understood abbreviation called a "MALBY 80". This translates to "join controlled airspace 5 miles north of MALBY at FL80".....not unlike a kind of SID. I believe that Brize give a CHEDWORTH departure in conjunction with this [I think]. The traffic is under Brize control until it is transfered to London as it approaches the edge of CAS.
Anything out of Lyneham climbs to FL70 on a SIREN departure [in the MALBY area], and may have to climb in the hold until we can be sure it will make FL180 by KENET [if eastbound] in order to jump London TMA traffic.
The "Remain outside" option you mention is absolutely correct for some circumstances.....for example it may be the only option for a Gloucester[Staverton] joiner if no procedural solution is possible, but a radar solution will be.
eyeinthe sky
another respected ppruner
my series of safety recommendations on kamikaze bandboxing and crap customer service delivery caused by 90% R/T loading gained second prize in the recent iPOD competition. Don't believe for one minute that all controllers hold the same high level of professional ethics that you and I do. I'm left with the feeling that I'm the only one who actually read the last copy of "Safety Matters".
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
Likes: 368
From: Wildest Surrey
So what you're saying is his joining clearance would have been passed to Brize and should have been relayed to the pilot by them.
It was thus either an omission by Brize ATC or maybe it was given to the aircraft but Ice pack wasn't aware for some reason eg lack of CRM. I know this is possible as crew members may listen to different frequencies quite often, but then the clearance should have been either received by or relayed to the captain, who should have briefed the other crew members with something like 'ATC joining clearance received and acknowledged'
It was thus either an omission by Brize ATC or maybe it was given to the aircraft but Ice pack wasn't aware for some reason eg lack of CRM. I know this is possible as crew members may listen to different frequencies quite often, but then the clearance should have been either received by or relayed to the captain, who should have briefed the other crew members with something like 'ATC joining clearance received and acknowledged'
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 930
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Can't remember exact words.
Something like Cleared Chedworth (? Dep) to join controlled airspace 5 miles before MALBY.
To those ? my CRM yes we did discuss it and that's why I've flagged it on this forum to get a debate going as whatever you may think a reply from an ATC controller of "Thank You" means very little to me in this context and as I did not get any ? about what I did then obviously I WAS CLEARED TO JOIN.
Anyway 055166K kindly answered and told me how it works. THANK YOU.
Last post.
Something like Cleared Chedworth (? Dep) to join controlled airspace 5 miles before MALBY.
To those ? my CRM yes we did discuss it and that's why I've flagged it on this forum to get a debate going as whatever you may think a reply from an ATC controller of "Thank You" means very little to me in this context and as I did not get any ? about what I did then obviously I WAS CLEARED TO JOIN.
Anyway 055166K kindly answered and told me how it works. THANK YOU.
Last post.