Nats Pensions
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: BERKSHIRE
[QUOTE
Are you saying that current NATS staff should take industrial action to 'protect' the T&C's of people who don't even work for the company yet, aren't forced to work for the company and will be aware of the companies T&C's before they sign on the dotted line?
BD[/QUOTE]
That was my initial reaction until someone explained the following:
Supposing the existing scheme is closed to new recruits, initially no problem as a small percentage of the workforce will have a different pension, but as time goes by...10...20 years that percentage will grow until the proportion of the work force that is in the existing scheme become the minority. At this point the minority will not have the leverage if there are any disputes!
For the long term safety of existing scheme members there should really be one pension scheme.
Are you saying that current NATS staff should take industrial action to 'protect' the T&C's of people who don't even work for the company yet, aren't forced to work for the company and will be aware of the companies T&C's before they sign on the dotted line?
BD[/QUOTE]
That was my initial reaction until someone explained the following:
Supposing the existing scheme is closed to new recruits, initially no problem as a small percentage of the workforce will have a different pension, but as time goes by...10...20 years that percentage will grow until the proportion of the work force that is in the existing scheme become the minority. At this point the minority will not have the leverage if there are any disputes!
For the long term safety of existing scheme members there should really be one pension scheme.
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
Supposing the existing scheme is closed to new recruits, initially no problem as a small percentage of the workforce will have a different pension, but as time goes by...10...20 years that percentage will grow until the proportion of the work force that is in the existing scheme become the minority. At this point the minority will not have the leverage if there are any disputes!
BD
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Destination 22
I posted this on the thread in the NATS forum that has gone off topic....
You are all right when you say that at the moment with the current laws in place NATS cannot touch our pensions - and long may that reamin so. Yes they would have to keep up contribution.
However. When the "new pension staff" out weigh those of us in the current scheme by 1 NATS will be able to tailor any pay deals + T&C to suit the new people.
So if in the future a new pension comprises of say 3% NATS input and 15% staff input (just making up numbers here) and our old one stays at the same rates what do you think will happen when management puts a deal on the table that goes like this
1% on basic pay
plus a reduction in staff contributions to the new pension of say 3% and the company will increase their own contributions to make up the shortfall for 3 years.
In effect a 4% pay rise for everyone in the new scheme, but 1% for those of us in the old.
And it would get voted through.
Its not just the pension that we are talking about - it is splitting the company (again imho thankyouverymuch Banding)
You are all right when you say that at the moment with the current laws in place NATS cannot touch our pensions - and long may that reamin so. Yes they would have to keep up contribution.
However. When the "new pension staff" out weigh those of us in the current scheme by 1 NATS will be able to tailor any pay deals + T&C to suit the new people.
So if in the future a new pension comprises of say 3% NATS input and 15% staff input (just making up numbers here) and our old one stays at the same rates what do you think will happen when management puts a deal on the table that goes like this
1% on basic pay
plus a reduction in staff contributions to the new pension of say 3% and the company will increase their own contributions to make up the shortfall for 3 years.
In effect a 4% pay rise for everyone in the new scheme, but 1% for those of us in the old.
And it would get voted through.
Its not just the pension that we are talking about - it is splitting the company (again imho thankyouverymuch Banding)
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: UK
Where Has The Regulator Told Nats To Cut Its Pension Costs ??
BDI...
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You keep saying that NATS has been told by the regulator to cut its pensions costs. Please show me where they have said this?
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"For instance, it would be unacceptable if NATS were able to benefit from savings in operating expenditure such as those that could be made by cutting back on pension contributions, at the expense of higher costs in future."......A direct quote from the Airline response to CP2.....Don't take pension hols then expect use to pay for them later....NOT....cut your pension costs, as you would have us believe.
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I have read CP2, NATS Response, Airlines Response, IATA Response and a response from the Star Alliance. Nowhere, in any of these, does it say NATS must cut its pension costs. At worst, it says they must manage them and not make short term savings then ask the Airlines to make up any shortfall.
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I REPEAT, and NATS AGREE...THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE PENSION SCHEME.
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IF the surplus begins to fall, and it appears that in the future NATS contributions rates need to rise to an unrealistic level, then SURELY THAT IS THE TIME TO LOOK AT CHANGES, NOT WHEN THERE IS NOTHING WRONG !!
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NATS Pensions costs are NOT increasing as the surplus is funding them. If the surplus begins to drop, then of course lets look at changes, but again I ask....Why Now??
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I'm happy to back up what I say with quotes and facts, Can you do the same??
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You keep saying that NATS has been told by the regulator to cut its pensions costs. Please show me where they have said this?
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"For instance, it would be unacceptable if NATS were able to benefit from savings in operating expenditure such as those that could be made by cutting back on pension contributions, at the expense of higher costs in future."......A direct quote from the Airline response to CP2.....Don't take pension hols then expect use to pay for them later....NOT....cut your pension costs, as you would have us believe.
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I have read CP2, NATS Response, Airlines Response, IATA Response and a response from the Star Alliance. Nowhere, in any of these, does it say NATS must cut its pension costs. At worst, it says they must manage them and not make short term savings then ask the Airlines to make up any shortfall.
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I REPEAT, and NATS AGREE...THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE PENSION SCHEME.
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IF the surplus begins to fall, and it appears that in the future NATS contributions rates need to rise to an unrealistic level, then SURELY THAT IS THE TIME TO LOOK AT CHANGES, NOT WHEN THERE IS NOTHING WRONG !!
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NATS Pensions costs are NOT increasing as the surplus is funding them. If the surplus begins to drop, then of course lets look at changes, but again I ask....Why Now??
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I'm happy to back up what I say with quotes and facts, Can you do the same??
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 856
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
CAAPS is ringfenced only parliamentary legislation
NATS goes bust and our pensions get hit HARD.
'course they could always change the rules but we're dealing with National Transport Infrastructure here, like Railtrack, so it would be in UK Plc interests to keep things going as a non profit company, and write off the debts.
BEX
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Essex
[quote=Stupendous Man;2976606]
So if in the future a new pension comprises of say 3% NATS input and 15% staff input (just making up numbers here) and our old one stays at the same rates what do you think will happen when management puts a deal on the table that goes like this
1% on basic pay
plus a reduction in staff contributions to the new pension of say 3% and the company will increase their own contributions to make up the shortfall for 3 years.
In effect a 4% pay rise for everyone in the new scheme, but 1% for those of us in the old.
[\quote]
I cant see that happening very often, cause their rate is going to be fairly low, if it is worse than the current scheme... and if it isnt they wont be able to try and pursuade people to transfer over.
DP - the rate is 12.8% of people´s pay, not the value of the scheme. Employees pay 6%, employer 12.8% at the moment...
James.
So if in the future a new pension comprises of say 3% NATS input and 15% staff input (just making up numbers here) and our old one stays at the same rates what do you think will happen when management puts a deal on the table that goes like this
1% on basic pay
plus a reduction in staff contributions to the new pension of say 3% and the company will increase their own contributions to make up the shortfall for 3 years.
In effect a 4% pay rise for everyone in the new scheme, but 1% for those of us in the old.
[\quote]
I cant see that happening very often, cause their rate is going to be fairly low, if it is worse than the current scheme... and if it isnt they wont be able to try and pursuade people to transfer over.
DP - the rate is 12.8% of people´s pay, not the value of the scheme. Employees pay 6%, employer 12.8% at the moment...
James.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: LONDON
Surely, if the government should U turn and change the law protecting our pension that would be the time to strike? Up until that point our pension is safe. Why pull the trigger before we know what we are aiming at?
.4
.4
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
BDI...
You keep saying that NATS has been told by the regulator to cut its pensions costs. Please show me where they have said this?
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"For instance, it would be unacceptable if NATS were able to benefit from savings in operating expenditure such as those that could be made by cutting back on pension contributions, at the expense of higher costs in future."......A direct quote from the Airline response to CP2.....Don't take pension hols then expect use to pay for them later....NOT....cut your pension costs, as you would have us believe.
You keep saying that NATS has been told by the regulator to cut its pensions costs. Please show me where they have said this?
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"For instance, it would be unacceptable if NATS were able to benefit from savings in operating expenditure such as those that could be made by cutting back on pension contributions, at the expense of higher costs in future."......A direct quote from the Airline response to CP2.....Don't take pension hols then expect use to pay for them later....NOT....cut your pension costs, as you would have us believe.
I REPEAT, and NATS AGREE...THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE PENSION SCHEME.
IF the surplus begins to fall, and it appears that in the future NATS contributions rates need to rise to an unrealistic level, then SURELY THAT IS THE TIME TO LOOK AT CHANGES, NOT WHEN THERE IS NOTHING WRONG !!
NATS Pensions costs are NOT increasing as the surplus is funding them. If the surplus begins to drop, then of course lets look at changes, but again I ask....Why Now??
I'm happy to back up what I say with quotes and facts, Can you do the same??
BD
P.S. Could you please cut back on the shouting, really jars on the eyes.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 762
Likes: 198
From: London
DP - the rate is 12.8% of people´s pay, not the value of the scheme. Employees pay 6%, employer 12.8% at the moment...
Because by then how many of us will there be in CAAPS to strike? 80% of staff? 60%? What happens when less than 50% of staff are in CAAPS?
We won't have the strength in the future unless we stand together now.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 865
Likes: 1
From: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
NATS Employees are being criticised for promoting strike action in the event of changes to the CAAPS. In my opinion this is a too simplistic view, I think that the talk of strike action is the culmination of frustration of employees who think that the management have gone far enough in attacking employees general terms and conditions, treating the "Operational Resources" with bearly concealed contempt ie: Paul Barron complaining about "excessive" salary scales, conning the unions with "Working Together" whose only advantage seems to be one way ie: in the managements favour, ignoring personnel and other centrally negotiated agreements and other issues whose only aim appears to be to screw the workers.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 62
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From: BERKSHIRE
I think it is a bit naive to believe that having people doing the same job but with different benefits is not going to cause problems in the long run!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,160
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Ask yourself what would our French friends do if in the same situation???? is it not about time we showed we have balls of "steel" and not "rubber" as we have done in the past ......as for Mr "B" whatever the outcome he once again will wander off into the sunset with a nice wadge in his back pocket!!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: UK
BDI
The reason the regulator is stopping 'pass through' is to prevent what I have attempted to explain on numerous occassions. It prevents NATS from taking 'pension holidays' or failing to pay in sufficient funds today only to force the airlines to stump up more cash in the future, to subsidise a badly managed pension fund. It doesn't prevent our pension costs being passed onto the airlines in any way, shape or form. All companies include pension costs in their overall charges. Provided our scheme is managed well and not used as a cash cow for NATS short term profits, then we will continue to include pension costs in our fees. Your argument would seem to say that with no pass through allowed we cannot pass any pension costs to our customers. That is a ludicrous suggestion and not only a blatant distortion of the truth but simple scare mongering !!
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As I said before, there is no problem with the Pensions Scheme. You say, not currently......Well, what is changing that makes it seem there is going to be a problem......Surplus is increasing, interest rates are rising, property prices are on the up, Govn Bond returns are increasing, the economy is stable, NATS are making a healthy profit, NATS costs per movement are down, etc, etc.
Again, when there is no evidence of this looming disaster.....Scare mongering
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There is a surplus of over £200million, and it is likely this is will be even more come March. This will not vanish overnight as you would make out. If we see the surplus begin to fall, then that is the time to look to changes if need be. I'm not being reactive, I'm being sensible. Your actions are to change a scheme that is extremely healthy and shows no signs of being anything else.
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To set up a new scheme, our costs would have to go up. To set up a Defined benefits scheme would cost in the region of £70million to set up initially. On top of this you then have NATS contributions to pay. The 12.2% is currently subsidised by our surplus, which would remain in the old scheme. Therefore, the new scheme is not being subsides, SO, just what contribution rate would NATS pay in. Surely it would have to be well over 12.2%, otherwise it would be well below what is required to provide a living wage on retirement?? SO, the cost of providing pensions would increase yet we can't pass through these costs....Where does this money come from then??
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You have the right to believe what you do regarding the Pensions Issue, it is a complex and emotive topic, but I think you will find the arguments/facts stacked strongly against you. I hope we are all able to retire on the £££ we expect to recieve. I, for my part, will do all I can to ensure that is the case for all, not just those who believe (rightly or wrongly) their pensions can't be touched.
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Once again, I thank you (and no shouting this time
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As I said before, there is no problem with the Pensions Scheme. You say, not currently......Well, what is changing that makes it seem there is going to be a problem......Surplus is increasing, interest rates are rising, property prices are on the up, Govn Bond returns are increasing, the economy is stable, NATS are making a healthy profit, NATS costs per movement are down, etc, etc.
Again, when there is no evidence of this looming disaster.....Scare mongering
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There is a surplus of over £200million, and it is likely this is will be even more come March. This will not vanish overnight as you would make out. If we see the surplus begin to fall, then that is the time to look to changes if need be. I'm not being reactive, I'm being sensible. Your actions are to change a scheme that is extremely healthy and shows no signs of being anything else.
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To set up a new scheme, our costs would have to go up. To set up a Defined benefits scheme would cost in the region of £70million to set up initially. On top of this you then have NATS contributions to pay. The 12.2% is currently subsidised by our surplus, which would remain in the old scheme. Therefore, the new scheme is not being subsides, SO, just what contribution rate would NATS pay in. Surely it would have to be well over 12.2%, otherwise it would be well below what is required to provide a living wage on retirement?? SO, the cost of providing pensions would increase yet we can't pass through these costs....Where does this money come from then??
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You have the right to believe what you do regarding the Pensions Issue, it is a complex and emotive topic, but I think you will find the arguments/facts stacked strongly against you. I hope we are all able to retire on the £££ we expect to recieve. I, for my part, will do all I can to ensure that is the case for all, not just those who believe (rightly or wrongly) their pensions can't be touched.
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Once again, I thank you (and no shouting this time
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Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 556
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j-b-g
Bravo
As I've said before, I suspect there is more to this than simply pensions and NATS continued involvement in CAAPS is the biggest obstacle to a full-scale sell-off of, in the first instance, NSL, followed by whatever else can be flogged.
Bravo
As I've said before, I suspect there is more to this than simply pensions and NATS continued involvement in CAAPS is the biggest obstacle to a full-scale sell-off of, in the first instance, NSL, followed by whatever else can be flogged.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: alton
excellent
j-b-g
an excellent post which sums up perfectly the real issues and motives behind managements posturing on our pensions. I do hope you are a union rep as that is exactly the depth of research and knowledge that will be required if this comes to a fight. As someone who has spent a very dull evening trawling through cp2 and other equally dry publications I concur with all of your points.
an excellent post which sums up perfectly the real issues and motives behind managements posturing on our pensions. I do hope you are a union rep as that is exactly the depth of research and knowledge that will be required if this comes to a fight. As someone who has spent a very dull evening trawling through cp2 and other equally dry publications I concur with all of your points.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: LONDON
Jonny be Good
An excellent post. Now I think I am beginning to understand the arguments and they do seem to suggest that there is no need to be messing about with this. Which then begs the quesiton, what are they really up to?
I am grateful for your clarity.
.4
P.s.
Just seen ifaxu's post. I agree; j-b-g, if you aren't a rep, please consider becoming one!
An excellent post. Now I think I am beginning to understand the arguments and they do seem to suggest that there is no need to be messing about with this. Which then begs the quesiton, what are they really up to?
I am grateful for your clarity.
.4
P.s.
Just seen ifaxu's post. I agree; j-b-g, if you aren't a rep, please consider becoming one!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,295
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From: Hants
One argument from management is that 'we have done well with our investments in the past but the future might not see such good dividends, '.
Well thats utter tosh... that is the way investment banking has always been (the old "rates may go up or down" statement bankers have to issue). For the management to use that as an excuse to stop the current scheme is complete twaddle!
Well thats utter tosh... that is the way investment banking has always been (the old "rates may go up or down" statement bankers have to issue). For the management to use that as an excuse to stop the current scheme is complete twaddle!
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
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