Nats Pensions
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5
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From: UK
120.4
Which is why I suspect that ATCO's would be excluded from any change (see my above post).
Also, as others have rightly said, NATS has a habit of of painting a black picture then presenting a package which is far less draconian. Staff think, "Well it could have been a lot worse", and are less inclined to resist.
I used to be suprised as to how gutless NATS ATCO's are. Many of our continental colleagues have far superior T&C than ours, mostly obtained by summer industrial action. I wish we would do the same. It would certainly clarify a few minds in a number of offices along the M27 and in Whitehall.
Which is why I suspect that ATCO's would be excluded from any change (see my above post).
Also, as others have rightly said, NATS has a habit of of painting a black picture then presenting a package which is far less draconian. Staff think, "Well it could have been a lot worse", and are less inclined to resist.
I used to be suprised as to how gutless NATS ATCO's are. Many of our continental colleagues have far superior T&C than ours, mostly obtained by summer industrial action. I wish we would do the same. It would certainly clarify a few minds in a number of offices along the M27 and in Whitehall.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
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From: LONDON
It has just been confirmed to me by another senior source that the existing pension cannot be touched so long as NATS remains solvent (excluding a 100% vote or Act of Parliament).
He also opined that future pay differentials are a risky and needless strategy for NATS because setting up a new pension scheme for new employees addresses the issue at hand and also sends the right signal to the regulator. Having achieved that, a question for the NATS board would then be, "What is the point in picking a fight with the unions by trying to introduce pay differentials when the longterm aim has been met?". Would the upset to the service and bad publicity be worth the short term gain to NATS when they have got what they really want, i.e. control of the longterm liability?
So, if there is to be no impact on our pension and if there is little risk of the board picking a fight over differentials, I have to ask the question again...
What would we be striking for? Make that clear to me and I will consider supporting it.
.4
He also opined that future pay differentials are a risky and needless strategy for NATS because setting up a new pension scheme for new employees addresses the issue at hand and also sends the right signal to the regulator. Having achieved that, a question for the NATS board would then be, "What is the point in picking a fight with the unions by trying to introduce pay differentials when the longterm aim has been met?". Would the upset to the service and bad publicity be worth the short term gain to NATS when they have got what they really want, i.e. control of the longterm liability?
So, if there is to be no impact on our pension and if there is little risk of the board picking a fight over differentials, I have to ask the question again...
What would we be striking for? Make that clear to me and I will consider supporting it.
.4
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 11
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From: UK
"It has just been confirmed to me by another senior source that the existing pension cannot be touched so long as NATS remains solvent (excluding a 100% vote or Act of Parliament). "
It has just been confirmed to me by another senior citizen source that "we're all going on (another) pension holiday"
Keep the tinder dry folks!!
It has just been confirmed to me by another senior citizen source that "we're all going on (another) pension holiday"
Keep the tinder dry folks!!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: UK
Pensions....the Facts !! ??
BDI 
Yet another rebuffal, I'm sorry to say:
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1) The reason the regulator has stopped pass through for new employees, and wishes to do so for all, is for the very reason explained earlier. It does not wish NATS to make short-term savings by cutting its contributions rates now, only to go to the airlines in a few year and say...oops, we have a shortfall so you need to make it up, please !!
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2) Yes, in enroute, NATS is a 'monopoly'. BUT this pass through is a red herring. ALL companies, even regulated monopolies pass their pension costs onto their customers. You say NATS has the burden of not having 'pass through'. Well, please show me another regulated monoploy which does ?? NATS is no different from anyone else operating in a regulated environment.
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Also, NATS only pay in 12.2%, a very low % by todays standards. YES, this is supported by the surplus, a surplus which appears to be increasing (as the triennial revue should soon show), and the surplus is the figure left over AFTER ALL members are paid their pensions (and future payments are included in this).
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3) YES, NATS are entitled to contribute at a rate of 12.2% and not 16% as they previously did. However, they are legally obliged to contribute at a rate which ensures the Pension Fund can meet all its commitments. Obviously, they therefore feel the scheme is doing so well, they need not contribute more (point of interest, the pass through is set at about 19% at the moment if they felt there was any looming problem with the fund!!)
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4) I'm guessing that you agree with me that £30million a year into our pension fund is actually a small amount of money in corporate terms. A 12.2% rate is relatively small as a company contribution and the scheme is almost 'Self-funding' being worth over £2billion !!
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5) Please stick to the facts...NATS contributions are not rising. They were 16% prior to 9/11. They then feel to 0%, and are only at 12.2% now, with the surplus increasing year on year (see NATS own publised accounts).
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Also, pensions are a long-term investment. YES, 10 yrs is a short time, it was used to show that the only time our HUGE surplus feel was after the equity crash from 9/11. Prior and post that, our savvy investers have consistently out performed the required market return, hence the HUGE surplus is continuing to grow, even after pensions holidays and lower contributions from NATS.
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Surely we do not want to go down the road of a 2 Tier NATS, with people doing the same job being paid differently (Yes, pensions is a payment). When payments from new members stop entering the current scheme, it makes the scheme more at risk as any long-term growth potential is removed. If there ever was another bad market crash, the scheme would then be more likely to face difficulty.
ONE NATS ONE PENSION
Yet another rebuffal, I'm sorry to say:
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1) The reason the regulator has stopped pass through for new employees, and wishes to do so for all, is for the very reason explained earlier. It does not wish NATS to make short-term savings by cutting its contributions rates now, only to go to the airlines in a few year and say...oops, we have a shortfall so you need to make it up, please !!
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2) Yes, in enroute, NATS is a 'monopoly'. BUT this pass through is a red herring. ALL companies, even regulated monopolies pass their pension costs onto their customers. You say NATS has the burden of not having 'pass through'. Well, please show me another regulated monoploy which does ?? NATS is no different from anyone else operating in a regulated environment.
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Also, NATS only pay in 12.2%, a very low % by todays standards. YES, this is supported by the surplus, a surplus which appears to be increasing (as the triennial revue should soon show), and the surplus is the figure left over AFTER ALL members are paid their pensions (and future payments are included in this).
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3) YES, NATS are entitled to contribute at a rate of 12.2% and not 16% as they previously did. However, they are legally obliged to contribute at a rate which ensures the Pension Fund can meet all its commitments. Obviously, they therefore feel the scheme is doing so well, they need not contribute more (point of interest, the pass through is set at about 19% at the moment if they felt there was any looming problem with the fund!!)
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4) I'm guessing that you agree with me that £30million a year into our pension fund is actually a small amount of money in corporate terms. A 12.2% rate is relatively small as a company contribution and the scheme is almost 'Self-funding' being worth over £2billion !!
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5) Please stick to the facts...NATS contributions are not rising. They were 16% prior to 9/11. They then feel to 0%, and are only at 12.2% now, with the surplus increasing year on year (see NATS own publised accounts).
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Also, pensions are a long-term investment. YES, 10 yrs is a short time, it was used to show that the only time our HUGE surplus feel was after the equity crash from 9/11. Prior and post that, our savvy investers have consistently out performed the required market return, hence the HUGE surplus is continuing to grow, even after pensions holidays and lower contributions from NATS.
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Surely we do not want to go down the road of a 2 Tier NATS, with people doing the same job being paid differently (Yes, pensions is a payment). When payments from new members stop entering the current scheme, it makes the scheme more at risk as any long-term growth potential is removed. If there ever was another bad market crash, the scheme would then be more likely to face difficulty.
ONE NATS ONE PENSION
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
You're entitled 
Nothing much that I can rebutt though as most things we agree on, its simply a matter of interpretation. Although I'm not aware of the details of any other monopoly regulated by government as NATS is.
Sigh. As the regulator has fired the warning shot of ceasing to allow pass through its inevitable that NATS conributions over the years must increase (although employee contributions are only 6%). Yes the fund is doing well at the moment but if it ceases to do well NATS must (by law) make up the shortfall every year.
And thats different to how things are now in what way? Yes it would make a slight difference in negotiated grades (dependent on what the replacement scheme is and remember that no one forces you to work for NATS, new people have a choice) but not to Personal Contract employees. Also, without going too far down this route, it wouldn't be different to, for example, ATC (T&S) grades who do what were formerly ATCO desk jobs for less money and without the 'benefit' of shift pay (NOS) which ATCO's will always get, irrespective if its been 30 years since they last controlled an aircraft or worked a shift.
I disagree. Members pay only a 6% contribution (NATS pays 12.2%) but eventually receive a VERY substantial return. NATS is obligated, by law, to ensuring that the pension scheme has sufficient funds to be able to pay out everything its committed to. CAAPS, like every pension fund since the Thatcher days, is capped on its 'profit' which must be ploughed back in or distributed to its members somehow. BTW you're also arguing both sides here, on the one hand how brilliantly the fund is doing with its large surplus (which gets ploughed back in) and on the other how it would be doom and gloom if there were a crash. 
BD
Nothing much that I can rebutt though as most things we agree on, its simply a matter of interpretation. Although I'm not aware of the details of any other monopoly regulated by government as NATS is.
5) Please stick to the facts...NATS contributions are not rising. They were 16% prior to 9/11. They then feel to 0%, and are only at 12.2% now, with the surplus increasing year on year (see NATS own publised accounts).
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Also, pensions are a long-term investment. YES, 10 yrs is a short time, it was used to show that the only time our HUGE surplus feel was after the equity crash from 9/11. Prior and post that, our savvy investers have consistently out performed the required market return, hence the HUGE surplus is continuing to grow, even after pensions holidays and lower contributions from NATS.:
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Also, pensions are a long-term investment. YES, 10 yrs is a short time, it was used to show that the only time our HUGE surplus feel was after the equity crash from 9/11. Prior and post that, our savvy investers have consistently out performed the required market return, hence the HUGE surplus is continuing to grow, even after pensions holidays and lower contributions from NATS.:
Surely we do not want to go down the road of a 2 Tier NATS, with people doing the same job being paid differently (Yes, pensions is a payment).
When payments from new members stop entering the current scheme, it makes the scheme more at risk as any long-term growth potential is removed. If there ever was another bad market crash, the scheme would then be more likely to face difficulty.
BD
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
From: UK
I've got to agree with many others: this is by far one of the best discussions I have seen in the ATC forum for quite some time.
Whilst NATS' percentage contributions may not have risen, every time we get a pay rise, they're actual contributions rise.
Originally Posted by Jonny B Good
Please stick to the facts...NATS contributions are not rising. They were 16% prior to 9/11. They then feel to 0%, and are only at 12.2% now, with the surplus increasing year on year (see NATS own publised accounts).
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
Sorry for the further late response, just wanted to be clear on something.
Are you saying that NATS must never change any of its Terms & Conditions of employment (because thats what pay and pensions come under)?
Are you saying that if NATS closes CAAPS to new employees, who will be aware of the changed T&C's and will have made a conscious choice to work for NATS anyway, that NATS staff should take industrial action?
Are you saying that current NATS staff should take industrial action to 'protect' the T&C's of people who don't even work for the company yet, aren't forced to work for the company and will be aware of the companies T&C's before they sign on the dotted line?
BD
Are you saying that NATS must never change any of its Terms & Conditions of employment (because thats what pay and pensions come under)?
Are you saying that if NATS closes CAAPS to new employees, who will be aware of the changed T&C's and will have made a conscious choice to work for NATS anyway, that NATS staff should take industrial action?
Are you saying that current NATS staff should take industrial action to 'protect' the T&C's of people who don't even work for the company yet, aren't forced to work for the company and will be aware of the companies T&C's before they sign on the dotted line?
BD
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Here's my viewpoint on the pensions debate.
I think the real reason why Barron is proposing these changes is to prepare NATS for full flotation on the stock market. Any reduction to the contributions made by NATS will make the company appear to be a better investment for any would-be future shareholders and also increase the 'windfall' that the government would make by selling its 49% stake which of course would then be used to bribe the UK voters with lower taxes in the run up to the next election.
People keep saying over and over again that we are protected by 'the trust of a promise' whatever the heck that means??? which is guaranteed by law. This law is not worth the paper it's printed on - I bet the government has already drafted a change in legislation that would be implemented within weeks of a change of the NATS pension which would then be followed closely by flotation.
Some may say that NATS is too small to warrant such a change in law but we all know that when it comes to plundering our hard earned cash this government will stop at NOTHING to get whatever they can.
I think the real reason why Barron is proposing these changes is to prepare NATS for full flotation on the stock market. Any reduction to the contributions made by NATS will make the company appear to be a better investment for any would-be future shareholders and also increase the 'windfall' that the government would make by selling its 49% stake which of course would then be used to bribe the UK voters with lower taxes in the run up to the next election.
People keep saying over and over again that we are protected by 'the trust of a promise' whatever the heck that means??? which is guaranteed by law. This law is not worth the paper it's printed on - I bet the government has already drafted a change in legislation that would be implemented within weeks of a change of the NATS pension which would then be followed closely by flotation.
Some may say that NATS is too small to warrant such a change in law but we all know that when it comes to plundering our hard earned cash this government will stop at NOTHING to get whatever they can.
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
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The one problem for Mgt in order to do this is the Pension Scheme - in its current form.
No private company like SERCO or whomever would be willing to take on NSL with the current scheme in place and the surest way of solving that problem is to wind up the existing scheme and open new ones which distinguish between NSL and NERL.
Like I say, I suspect there is a bigger issue here than just pensions.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 762
Likes: 198
From: London
Hang on, the pension fund is worth £2 billion and the company is putting in £30 million a year?
1.5%?
CAAPS could put the entire pension fund in a current account and still grow twice as fast as with NATS contributions.
NATS' contributions are a drop in the ocean so far as the fund is concerned and still they're trying to reduce their (overall) payments.
The numbers we're presented with from management (and BDionu
) don't stack up.
We need to see a strong rebuttal from the union.
I really wouldn't believe any 'senior management' sources that anyone is privy to, there's a lot of incentive to sell this one to the troops.
1.5%?
CAAPS could put the entire pension fund in a current account and still grow twice as fast as with NATS contributions.
NATS' contributions are a drop in the ocean so far as the fund is concerned and still they're trying to reduce their (overall) payments.
The numbers we're presented with from management (and BDionu
) don't stack up.We need to see a strong rebuttal from the union.
I really wouldn't believe any 'senior management' sources that anyone is privy to, there's a lot of incentive to sell this one to the troops.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: LONDON
[QUOTE I bet the government has already drafted a change in legislation that would be implemented within weeks of a change of the NATS pension which would then be followed closely by flotation.
[/QUOTE]
Dunebug
What you are saying is that the government intends to use valuable time in Parliament to get a bill through so that it can more easily sell off NATS for... how much?
I doubt there is sufficient value to merit what would surely be seen as a blatant back tracking on the PPP arrangements. It would surely suggest to the country that parliament was abused by the government in order to get around a difficult issue that was likely to prevent PPP. I suggest the political dangers in that are immense. This country has little trust in this government as it is; such an admission of the mistreatment of Parliament would hardly encourage trust of government in the run up to the next election.
I could yet be proven wrong but I just don't see that; it's Political suicide.
.4
[/QUOTE]
Dunebug
What you are saying is that the government intends to use valuable time in Parliament to get a bill through so that it can more easily sell off NATS for... how much?
I doubt there is sufficient value to merit what would surely be seen as a blatant back tracking on the PPP arrangements. It would surely suggest to the country that parliament was abused by the government in order to get around a difficult issue that was likely to prevent PPP. I suggest the political dangers in that are immense. This country has little trust in this government as it is; such an admission of the mistreatment of Parliament would hardly encourage trust of government in the run up to the next election.
I could yet be proven wrong but I just don't see that; it's Political suicide.
.4
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: LONDON
DP
I understand the fears. If the "strong rebuttal" you seek involves strike action then the first question I will ask the union is...
If the law says CAAPS cannot be touched, and there is little risk of the introduction of pay differentials (no need to take on the troops over that if what they really want is in the bag), what would we go on strike for?
There is no way I am going to vote to strike unless there is a "clear and present danger" of serious errosion of my T&C.
.4
I understand the fears. If the "strong rebuttal" you seek involves strike action then the first question I will ask the union is...
If the law says CAAPS cannot be touched, and there is little risk of the introduction of pay differentials (no need to take on the troops over that if what they really want is in the bag), what would we go on strike for?
There is no way I am going to vote to strike unless there is a "clear and present danger" of serious errosion of my T&C.
.4
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Bit of history of the reasons behind PPP as it relates to NATS.
The Tory government pre 1997 had already earmarked NATS for sale, and had already budgeted for it's sale bringing in many million quids. Cue much hand wringing from the then Labour opposition, including the infamous "our air is not for sale" statement. (Sounds like "your pensions are safe", doesn't it? but I digress......)
1997 arrives and Gordon arrives at No.11, finding finances in a shambles. First thing he does though is ADOPT all the financial plans already in place, and puts a stop to any further borrowing. No tax and spend Chancellor will Gordo be, no siree. But there's a problem. £750m of a problem. Without the sale of NATS, which is against Labour policy, poor old Gordo is short of said £750m.
Solution, change policy like the wind. Use your majority in Parliament to force the sale of NATS through, as least a bit of it that rasies enough cash. Appease the masses with some claptrap about pension protection (you can always change this later when no-one's looking, say on Friday when something bad has happened in Iraq / Afganistan etc etc) and Robert's your Uncle.
Gordon fills the hole in the accounts, and also tidily sidesteps questions about CAA NATS future investment.
Governments can and do change policy, and legislation, at the drop of a hat when it suits them or their friends. The union did their very best to protect CAAPS both at the time of PPP, and after NATS enforced split from the CAA. The legislation is only as watertight as the Govenment will allow it to be. Do you trust the politicians?
The Tory government pre 1997 had already earmarked NATS for sale, and had already budgeted for it's sale bringing in many million quids. Cue much hand wringing from the then Labour opposition, including the infamous "our air is not for sale" statement. (Sounds like "your pensions are safe", doesn't it? but I digress......)
1997 arrives and Gordon arrives at No.11, finding finances in a shambles. First thing he does though is ADOPT all the financial plans already in place, and puts a stop to any further borrowing. No tax and spend Chancellor will Gordo be, no siree. But there's a problem. £750m of a problem. Without the sale of NATS, which is against Labour policy, poor old Gordo is short of said £750m.
Solution, change policy like the wind. Use your majority in Parliament to force the sale of NATS through, as least a bit of it that rasies enough cash. Appease the masses with some claptrap about pension protection (you can always change this later when no-one's looking, say on Friday when something bad has happened in Iraq / Afganistan etc etc) and Robert's your Uncle.
Gordon fills the hole in the accounts, and also tidily sidesteps questions about CAA NATS future investment.
Governments can and do change policy, and legislation, at the drop of a hat when it suits them or their friends. The union did their very best to protect CAAPS both at the time of PPP, and after NATS enforced split from the CAA. The legislation is only as watertight as the Govenment will allow it to be. Do you trust the politicians?
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
Governments can and do change policy, and legislation, at the drop of a hat when it suits them or their friends. The union did their very best to protect CAAPS both at the time of PPP, and after NATS enforced split from the CAA. The legislation is only as watertight as the Govenment will allow it to be. Do you trust the politicians?
However this is a red herring concerning closing CAAPS off to new entrants (which is what we're discussing). If the government want to change the law concerning CAAPS so they can do a Maxwell and plunder it then they will, irrespective of whether or it its been closed off to new members.
BD
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: UK
Quick Response....
Lets get something straight....
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CAAPS, Deed of Trust/Promise is extremely good protection. It makes it very difficult for changes to be made in the current scheme but only relates to members of the scheme prior to July 2001. There are employees who are not protected by it !! The TRUST/DEED is NOT PERFECT, but it is as good as the unions could get for PPP.
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NATS, under PPP, was set up as a NOT FOR PROFIT company, but look how, in such a short time, things have already changed in that respect !!
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In the latest NATS Pension Presentation, and interesting point they made was
"The Trustees cannot return any surplus in the scheme to NATS."
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mmmmh!! Do I detect they wish to get their hands on the £200million in OUR Pension Scheme ?? No, surely not !! HaHa.....
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Why is there such a rush to sell this one to Staff and not await the results of the Triennial Revue being carried out this month, with results due in March. Surely you would want to know exactly what is happening with the scheme before you make any hasty decisions ??
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I am going to lay my cards on the table here for BDI and others who support the changes...
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WHY NOT AWAIT THE TRIENNIAL REVUE IN MARCH 2007, SEE THE TRUE STATE OF THE SCHEME AND WHAT THE INDEPENDANT SCHEME ACTUARIE SAYS THE FUTURE HOLDS, THEN ACT ON WHAT THE TRUSTEES REQUIRE. ALL THESE PEOPLE INVOLVED ARE LEGALLY BOUND TO ENSURE THE BEST RESULTS FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE SCHEME. LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS !!-
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If they say the scheme is in difficulty, trust me, I will be the first to demand action be taken. If the scheme is fine, then, If it aint broke, don't fix it !!-
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PS......Glad everyone is enjoying the debate, but please, please....don't blindly believe everything you are told. ASK questions, of both sides, find out the facts for yourself, and finally make your own decision.
Cheers guys/gals.
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CAAPS, Deed of Trust/Promise is extremely good protection. It makes it very difficult for changes to be made in the current scheme but only relates to members of the scheme prior to July 2001. There are employees who are not protected by it !! The TRUST/DEED is NOT PERFECT, but it is as good as the unions could get for PPP.
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NATS, under PPP, was set up as a NOT FOR PROFIT company, but look how, in such a short time, things have already changed in that respect !!
-
In the latest NATS Pension Presentation, and interesting point they made was
"The Trustees cannot return any surplus in the scheme to NATS."
-
mmmmh!! Do I detect they wish to get their hands on the £200million in OUR Pension Scheme ?? No, surely not !! HaHa.....
-
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Why is there such a rush to sell this one to Staff and not await the results of the Triennial Revue being carried out this month, with results due in March. Surely you would want to know exactly what is happening with the scheme before you make any hasty decisions ??
-
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I am going to lay my cards on the table here for BDI and others who support the changes...
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WHY NOT AWAIT THE TRIENNIAL REVUE IN MARCH 2007, SEE THE TRUE STATE OF THE SCHEME AND WHAT THE INDEPENDANT SCHEME ACTUARIE SAYS THE FUTURE HOLDS, THEN ACT ON WHAT THE TRUSTEES REQUIRE. ALL THESE PEOPLE INVOLVED ARE LEGALLY BOUND TO ENSURE THE BEST RESULTS FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE SCHEME. LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS !!-
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If they say the scheme is in difficulty, trust me, I will be the first to demand action be taken. If the scheme is fine, then, If it aint broke, don't fix it !!-
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PS......Glad everyone is enjoying the debate, but please, please....don't blindly believe everything you are told. ASK questions, of both sides, find out the facts for yourself, and finally make your own decision.
Cheers guys/gals.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
From: Winchester.Hants.England
I doubt there is sufficient value to merit what would surely be seen as a blatant back tracking on the PPP arrangements. It would surely suggest to the country that parliament was abused by the government in order to get around a difficult issue that was likely to prevent PPP.
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
Why is there such a rush to sell this one to Staff and not await the results of the Triennial Revue being carried out this month, with results due in March. Surely you would want to know exactly what is happening with the scheme before you make any hasty decisions ??
<edited to remove shouting>If they say the scheme is in difficulty, trust me, I will be the first to demand action be taken. If the scheme is fine, then, If it aint broke, don't fix it !![/U][/I]-
<edited to remove shouting>If they say the scheme is in difficulty, trust me, I will be the first to demand action be taken. If the scheme is fine, then, If it aint broke, don't fix it !![/U][/I]-
BD