Ryanair and 757 'vortex'
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Ryanair and 757 'vortex'
Wots going on ? - Why are Ryanair (B738) crew increasingly asking for two minutes spacing behind departing B752s, - and other crews are catching the bug. Wake doesn't stop them eating up 757s on final approach though.
All seems a bit 'Irish' to me......
All seems a bit 'Irish' to me......
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Its because a "wake turbulence" upset is more critical the closer to the ground you get...if your visual on approach all you do is adjust your touchdown point to beyond the preceeding 75..and your fine
Its more critical on departure..simply because your margins are that much smaller
Its more critical on departure..simply because your margins are that much smaller
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Previous discussion here and the 757, particularly when heavy, can generate significant wake turbulence. Captain's discretion as always (and you have to hope they will advise you BEFORE you line them up for an immediate
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"All seems a bit 'Irish' to me......"
What do you mean by this exactly???? B757's are catagorised as "Heavy" Aircraft when considering wake turbulence. Thats probably why Ryanair AND other operators ask for 2 mins. I'm an ATCO and whenever take off clearence is issued to a medium behind a heavy I think its good airmanship to just caution the medium a/c that a B757 has just departed. I always take into consideration the space a medium may need behind a 757 when deciding whether or not to give clearance to line-up.
What do you mean by this exactly???? B757's are catagorised as "Heavy" Aircraft when considering wake turbulence. Thats probably why Ryanair AND other operators ask for 2 mins. I'm an ATCO and whenever take off clearence is issued to a medium behind a heavy I think its good airmanship to just caution the medium a/c that a B757 has just departed. I always take into consideration the space a medium may need behind a 757 when deciding whether or not to give clearance to line-up.
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Roger - that is the problem - if you look at my link it appears that it may only be France that does categorise it so. The latest AIP has it as medium. Many disgree with this and as I said, it is Captain's discretion.
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Originally Posted by The Jolly Roger
What do you mean by this exactly???? B757's are catagorised as "Heavy" Aircraft when considering wake turbulence.
Therefore here a 737 (Lower Medium in UK) only requires one minute on departure according to our separation tables (and 4nm spacing on final, not five).
Last edited by Roffa; 23rd Jul 2006 at 21:22.
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Originally Posted by point5
Correct! And the thing that really pi*$es me off... someone lines up, cleared to go and its only then they decide to tell you they want 2 minutes! 
Something for the Command Course Facilitators to take up with their 'newbie' captains, I feel.........
Perhaps CRM training should touch on the development of 'external awareness', or is that too much to ask?
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I seem to have to argue with pilots all the time to go behind a 757. Some will, some won't, even within the same company, drives me mad, even asked one are you ready for an immediate behind the 757, answer yes, then lines up and refuses to roll. Result same company go around. Bet that was fun in the crew room later. Pilots say that it is company restrictions, well I don't work for your company therefore I don't know these rules, anyway you went a minute behind yesterday. F***ing pilots 
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In HongKong we had to give 2 mins vortex behind a 757 for other mediums on departure.
I'm not sure if it's an ICAO requirement or it was just in the HK AIP.757s are nasty things for vortex and if pilots wants 3+ mins behind one,then thats what they will get.After all it's their safety thats the issue.
I'm not sure if it's an ICAO requirement or it was just in the HK AIP.757s are nasty things for vortex and if pilots wants 3+ mins behind one,then thats what they will get.After all it's their safety thats the issue.
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Originally Posted by point5
Nop! No resultant go-arounds unless we are TEAMing as we use one runway for Deps and one for Arrs. Just a bit annoying when you have good departure splits.
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Well.....I guess some Ryanair pilots have been scared S***less runnin into the wake of a 757 and decided to spread the word!! I can see why they might. A 757's wake vortices, whether it is classed as medium, upper-medium or heavy, are pretty horrific if you fly into them. I agree that it's pilots discretion. Afterall, they know best!
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On several occasions I've been asked if the preceeding was a 757 when it infact was an A321. Guess quite a few drivers round are more than a little wary.
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Heavy / Medium in Canada
In Canada, the 757 is considered a medium when following and a heavy when in front.
A w/t cautionnary is necessary even to a 747 behind a 757. Lately, I've started doing that with A321 although that is not yet a rule.
A w/t cautionnary is necessary even to a 747 behind a 757. Lately, I've started doing that with A321 although that is not yet a rule.
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well i am a pilot and have had situations like above;
i beleive there is a rule that states that if a Pilot deems it nessecary to have increased separation with preceding a/c; he should advice ATC
before he/she accepts the line up clearance e.g. T/O clearance
Therefore if you guys clear an aircraft and he/she does not act on that clearance while he did line up, make him vacate the runway immediately, that'll teach him for the next time!
Pointer
i beleive there is a rule that states that if a Pilot deems it nessecary to have increased separation with preceding a/c; he should advice ATC
before he/she accepts the line up clearance e.g. T/O clearance
Therefore if you guys clear an aircraft and he/she does not act on that clearance while he did line up, make him vacate the runway immediately, that'll teach him for the next time!
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Therefore if you guys clear an aircraft and he/she does not act on that clearance while he did line up, make him vacate the runway immediately, that'll teach him for the next time!
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True, i did not meant it to be first action but you probably know who it was, you might use this as a last resort to get the point across. but the little people in the big plane should think about this, it is important to know IMHO.
(playing a bit the devils advocate here, don't mean to suggest anything unsafe..
)
Pointer
(playing a bit the devils advocate here, don't mean to suggest anything unsafe..
)Pointer
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Sorry pointer, my smiley didn't stick! Mine was also meant to be devil's advocate!
After a while one gets an idea of which airlines are more likely to want two minutes behind a 757. It's not too difficult to either plan for it in one's order, or ask. Of course, when asking, one must phrase the question in a suitable manner. Asking "Do you require two minutes behind 757?" usually receives the answer "yes". The question "Are you able one minute behind 757 to expedite your departure?" has a higher success rate....
After a while one gets an idea of which airlines are more likely to want two minutes behind a 757. It's not too difficult to either plan for it in one's order, or ask. Of course, when asking, one must phrase the question in a suitable manner. Asking "Do you require two minutes behind 757?" usually receives the answer "yes". The question "Are you able one minute behind 757 to expedite your departure?" has a higher success rate....