Cardiff - "Controller's lunch break delayed landing"
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Cardiff
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the article say 'Tea break'....
Whats to say it was a cup of Tea and cigarette break?
I think this post has gone completely off topic, just for a few jabs at what people interpret as meal time!
Cardiff is hardly over-run with aircraft at this time of night. So unless, as people have mentioned, the person involved was on a required break, and refused point blank to land this one plane until the required time was up, then there must be more to it that isn't for public knowledge.
Whats to say it was a cup of Tea and cigarette break?
I think this post has gone completely off topic, just for a few jabs at what people interpret as meal time!
Cardiff is hardly over-run with aircraft at this time of night. So unless, as people have mentioned, the person involved was on a required break, and refused point blank to land this one plane until the required time was up, then there must be more to it that isn't for public knowledge.
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From: Europe
OK, stand corrected, you're wrong ... 
Look at the link in the first post. The article starts thus:
Look at the link in the first post. The article starts thus:
CONTROLLER'S LUNCH BREAK DELAYED LANDING
Apr 4 2006
Madeleine Brindley, Western Mail
A PILOT told holidaymakers he could not land at Cardiff International Airport because an air traffic controller was on a tea break.
Blah, blah, blah, etc, etc
Apr 4 2006
Madeleine Brindley, Western Mail
A PILOT told holidaymakers he could not land at Cardiff International Airport because an air traffic controller was on a tea break.
Blah, blah, blah, etc, etc
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From: AUSTRALIA
Um .... lost track of how many solo night shifts I've done. It sort of worked out, never got damp or hungry and YES there was AD, APP and ENR traffic and often plenty of it. Who gives a rats ar$e what you call a meal break.
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From: Hants
For the last time (thank God I hear you sigh)
I don't really give a monkeys what you call your repast at 0040.
What I think the point is, and it should be perfectly clear considering the previous posts, is the standard of reporting on this and other incidents regarding aviation.
My point is that if the Journo cannot even get the semantics correct for the meal, using proper English, then what chance have we of a decently reported piece on aviation... what other 'facts' are incorrect, either semantically or otherwise.
Journalists use the peculiarities of language (English has particularly strange connotations sometimes) to infer something that may not always be a fact. They use this play on words to sell newspapers.
Hence the headline "Controller's lunch break delayed landing" - She couldn't even use the apostrophe correctly whilst trying to senationalise a story....
Therefore it is entirely my right to lambast a journalist for incorrect use of English and then compare it with his or her ability to grasp the basics with his or her ability to grasp concepts of aviation.
Will probably find that the 'journalist' is a product of the plastic (sorry, I mean red brick) 'universities' that specialise in degrees such as Surfing or David Beckham!!
What I think the point is, and it should be perfectly clear considering the previous posts, is the standard of reporting on this and other incidents regarding aviation.
My point is that if the Journo cannot even get the semantics correct for the meal, using proper English, then what chance have we of a decently reported piece on aviation... what other 'facts' are incorrect, either semantically or otherwise.
Journalists use the peculiarities of language (English has particularly strange connotations sometimes) to infer something that may not always be a fact. They use this play on words to sell newspapers.
Hence the headline "Controller's lunch break delayed landing" - She couldn't even use the apostrophe correctly whilst trying to senationalise a story....
Therefore it is entirely my right to lambast a journalist for incorrect use of English and then compare it with his or her ability to grasp the basics with his or her ability to grasp concepts of aviation.
Will probably find that the 'journalist' is a product of the plastic (sorry, I mean red brick) 'universities' that specialise in degrees such as Surfing or David Beckham!!
Last edited by anotherthing; 6th April 2006 at 09:02.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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From: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Beckham gets surfing degree at plastic Uni!
Ooh, that was rather a good headline.
Iwannabeajourno, iwannabeajourno, canidaddy, huh, huh, cani???
Spitoon- unfortunately, come 2300 local, all the delegated airspace down our way reverts to LACC (not so's you'd notice with some of the handovers I get though!
) So it matters not that the Taffy Tracon ATCO's go to bed, er sorry, on a break. Still, as long as they're on 30, I can bung'em on their Loc. But they rarely ask. Some day, they'll figure out they could have longer sleeps, er sorry, breaks if they just asked us to help out. I'm up all night anyway, makes no difference to me!
Ooh, that was rather a good headline.
Iwannabeajourno, iwannabeajourno, canidaddy, huh, huh, cani???
Spitoon- unfortunately, come 2300 local, all the delegated airspace down our way reverts to LACC (not so's you'd notice with some of the handovers I get though!
) So it matters not that the Taffy Tracon ATCO's go to bed, er sorry, on a break. Still, as long as they're on 30, I can bung'em on their Loc. But they rarely ask. Some day, they'll figure out they could have longer sleeps, er sorry, breaks if they just asked us to help out. I'm up all night anyway, makes no difference to me!
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From: plymouth
A point that i think needs to be made here, is the publics perception/knowledge of duty hours and regulations etc
within the aviation industry. The public are well aware that
pilots have duty hours and restrictions on flying times for flight safety,
but they have no idea that controllers have regulations on the hours we do.
I would be interested to know how many airline pilots are
aware that we too have restrictions on our hours. If we mention
breaks that happen to affect a airline, you don't here the phrase "the guys just doing his job its flight safety " like when a pilot sticks to his
regulations.:
within the aviation industry. The public are well aware that
pilots have duty hours and restrictions on flying times for flight safety,
but they have no idea that controllers have regulations on the hours we do.
I would be interested to know how many airline pilots are
aware that we too have restrictions on our hours. If we mention
breaks that happen to affect a airline, you don't here the phrase "the guys just doing his job its flight safety " like when a pilot sticks to his
regulations.:
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From: North of Watford
CAP 670
CAP 670 states,
4.2 By the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services In exceptional circumstances the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services at a unit may
in its discretion modify any Limitation through persons exercising its authority. Such modifications may only be made to overcome short-term, temporary and unforeseen difficulties at the unit and, having regard to the Scheme of Regulation, may only be made if the safety and effectiveness of Air Traffic Control will be maintained. The CAA will require to review the circumstances of each such modification and for this purpose a report and full details of the modification shall be notified in writing, using the form shown in Annex A to Part D, to Air Traffic Standards Department within 24 hours of the modification taking effect.
I think if I was the 'persons exercising its authority', I would have vectored the a/c. What is safer......an a/c going round the hold with 170 people on board.....or an ATCO taking his break, just before the a/c arrives!
4.2 By the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services In exceptional circumstances the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services at a unit may
in its discretion modify any Limitation through persons exercising its authority. Such modifications may only be made to overcome short-term, temporary and unforeseen difficulties at the unit and, having regard to the Scheme of Regulation, may only be made if the safety and effectiveness of Air Traffic Control will be maintained. The CAA will require to review the circumstances of each such modification and for this purpose a report and full details of the modification shall be notified in writing, using the form shown in Annex A to Part D, to Air Traffic Standards Department within 24 hours of the modification taking effect.
I think if I was the 'persons exercising its authority', I would have vectored the a/c. What is safer......an a/c going round the hold with 170 people on board.....or an ATCO taking his break, just before the a/c arrives!
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From: UK
[QUOTE=surface wind] What is safer......an a/c going round the hold with 170 people on board.....or an ATCO taking his break, just before the a/c arrives!
If the controller required a fatigue break then he/she had to take one ,as I have said before this is LAW. Had the controller vectored this aircraft and had an incident with it-perhaps where people on board were injured or worse-then they could be looking at prosecution for negligence and obviously dismissal. Also,regardless of how many people are on board, what is so unsafe about an aircraft holding?
If the controller required a fatigue break then he/she had to take one ,as I have said before this is LAW. Had the controller vectored this aircraft and had an incident with it-perhaps where people on board were injured or worse-then they could be looking at prosecution for negligence and obviously dismissal. Also,regardless of how many people are on board, what is so unsafe about an aircraft holding?
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surface wind, not that it is really the issue here, I don't think either situation is more or less safe than the other - not to any degree that would count in the risk assessment!
caaardiff, you wouldn't have a vested interest in this would you?
Whatever. The rules actually say "No operational duty shall exceed a period of two hours without there being taken during, or at the end of, that period a break or breaks totalling not less than 30 minutes." Is it really beyond the wit of a NATS unit manager to find some way for a total of 30 mins break is taken during a 2 hour period and not for the 10 minutes around the estimate for the inbound? I guess the only alternative explanation is that the controller is just trying to be difficult or something similar.
On the other hand, isn't this a crazy situation for an aerodrome that is promulgated as H24. And as I don't see any NOTAMs warning of no ATC available I presume it won't happen again.....otherwise it could really make a mess of one's incredibly efficient fuel planning!
caaardiff, you wouldn't have a vested interest in this would you?
Whatever. The rules actually say "No operational duty shall exceed a period of two hours without there being taken during, or at the end of, that period a break or breaks totalling not less than 30 minutes." Is it really beyond the wit of a NATS unit manager to find some way for a total of 30 mins break is taken during a 2 hour period and not for the 10 minutes around the estimate for the inbound? I guess the only alternative explanation is that the controller is just trying to be difficult or something similar.
On the other hand, isn't this a crazy situation for an aerodrome that is promulgated as H24. And as I don't see any NOTAMs warning of no ATC available I presume it won't happen again.....otherwise it could really make a mess of one's incredibly efficient fuel planning!
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From: Europe
What estimate would you be basing your break plan on Spitoon ??
The one from the ACC .... too late, that means the aircraft is about 15 minutes away anyway so the plan you worked out nearly 2 hours ago is now buggered, you're almost out of duty time.
The DEP message (if you got one) and the FPL elapsed time .... oooops, all those direct routeings over Europe mean the aircraft is going to pitch up 10 minutes earlier than the time you'd planned to return from your break. Just 2 possibilities which could result in an aircraft having to wait for a controller to be legal. Any ATCO could think of many more scenarios.
There is also an assumption that the ATCO wasn't doing anything for the time between starting shift and taking the break, that somehow this break could have been shifted to suit. Or maybe, just maybe, he was controlling aircraft for most of this time and had no leeway to move the break too much, if at all ??
ATCOs, as a breed, like an easy life. They don't like filling in forms or having to explain to someone higher up what they did and why. Especially if there is fallout from airlines and the public. So why would this ATCO open up the floodgates on themselves unless they were given no choice and legally bound to do something ? I reckon they did the right thing and covered their own back ahead of anyone elses. They were there, it is their licence, and they know the facts upon which their decision was based. Had the aircraft situation then changed (emergency, short of fuel, etc), then I have no doubt at all that professional judgement would have been exercised and SRATCOH 'varied' to provide the best service to the aircraft in those circumstances.
The one from the ACC .... too late, that means the aircraft is about 15 minutes away anyway so the plan you worked out nearly 2 hours ago is now buggered, you're almost out of duty time.
The DEP message (if you got one) and the FPL elapsed time .... oooops, all those direct routeings over Europe mean the aircraft is going to pitch up 10 minutes earlier than the time you'd planned to return from your break. Just 2 possibilities which could result in an aircraft having to wait for a controller to be legal. Any ATCO could think of many more scenarios.There is also an assumption that the ATCO wasn't doing anything for the time between starting shift and taking the break, that somehow this break could have been shifted to suit. Or maybe, just maybe, he was controlling aircraft for most of this time and had no leeway to move the break too much, if at all ??
ATCOs, as a breed, like an easy life. They don't like filling in forms or having to explain to someone higher up what they did and why. Especially if there is fallout from airlines and the public. So why would this ATCO open up the floodgates on themselves unless they were given no choice and legally bound to do something ? I reckon they did the right thing and covered their own back ahead of anyone elses. They were there, it is their licence, and they know the facts upon which their decision was based. Had the aircraft situation then changed (emergency, short of fuel, etc), then I have no doubt at all that professional judgement would have been exercised and SRATCOH 'varied' to provide the best service to the aircraft in those circumstances.
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From: Wildest Surrey
Dep messages would help in this situation by giving a 'ballpark' eta to plan breaks. Pity only some Italian and Russian airfields send them nowadays. Course at my airfield, we sometimes send a 'request dep' if it gets time critical, but I'm not sure if FF could do this.
NB I know they're not officially required under IFPS, but they're bl**dy useful when you do get them!
NB I know they're not officially required under IFPS, but they're bl**dy useful when you do get them!
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From: Highlands
Crap Journalism....correct punctuation.....
Hence the headline "Controller's lunch break delayed landing" - She couldn't even use the apostrophe correctly whilst trying to senationalise a story....
If she is assuming that there is one air traffic controller taking a lunch break, then the apostrophe has been correctly used to denote possession.
Last edited by Highland Director; 9th April 2006 at 06:42.
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From: Hants
Highland Director -
My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!
I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!
My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!
I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!
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From: Highlands
Originally Posted by anotherthing
Highland Director -
My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!
I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!
My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!
I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!
It's for that reason that I left it to become an ATCO. Controlling is certainly much less stressful than teaching these days!Maybe we've gone a little off topic here......
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From: around
Originally Posted by anotherthing
HD
This 'loonie' works at TC. This 'loonie' works nights. This loonie may eat something during the night shift, but it is not 'lunch'.
Lunch is a meal at midday, dinner is a meal in the evening, Breakfast - well, thats the meal in the morning that 'breaks' the 'fast' that usually occurs if you sleep all night.
Despite some northern English spin, tea is a mid morning or mid afternoon snack taken at a time other than the above meals.
I don't know what you were trying to prove, all I was saying was lunch at 1240am is not strictly true, and certainly not the correct use of English. Something which a journalist should get correct, even if all the other bull that they print is factually incorrect, or misleading, or speculative.
I'm off for my early morning meal
This 'loonie' works at TC. This 'loonie' works nights. This loonie may eat something during the night shift, but it is not 'lunch'.
Lunch is a meal at midday, dinner is a meal in the evening, Breakfast - well, thats the meal in the morning that 'breaks' the 'fast' that usually occurs if you sleep all night.
Despite some northern English spin, tea is a mid morning or mid afternoon snack taken at a time other than the above meals.
I don't know what you were trying to prove, all I was saying was lunch at 1240am is not strictly true, and certainly not the correct use of English. Something which a journalist should get correct, even if all the other bull that they print is factually incorrect, or misleading, or speculative.
I'm off for my early morning meal
Ever been for an all day breakfast? Now what!
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From: Southern england
Originally Posted by PPRuNe Radar
Anotherthing
I'm a fellow loonie, since I agree with your reasoning. It may be a meal or a snack but it certainly isn't lunch (using the Oxford English dictionary version anyway).
Another difference from HD's world is that some of us actually have to work aeroplanes for significant portions of our night shifts. Apart from the beginning and end of shift periods, what exactly DID you do at LHR during a night shift HD ??
I'm a fellow loonie, since I agree with your reasoning. It may be a meal or a snack but it certainly isn't lunch (using the Oxford English dictionary version anyway).
Another difference from HD's world is that some of us actually have to work aeroplanes for significant portions of our night shifts. Apart from the beginning and end of shift periods, what exactly DID you do at LHR during a night shift HD ??
On my last night shift at LHR this week I had between one and three police helicopters on frequency for all but 15 minutes of the six hours I spent in situ.
This is now commonplace as all of the three forces airborne support units which operate in or around the LTMA are now 24/7 and most criminal activity tends to take place at night.......
