When did BMA A320 pilots get an ATC licence????
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DFC- If i had to tell every crew in the Talla sector why i had them on a heading safety would be compromised-not nearly enough time my friend.Bear in mind that the headings you are on going into EDI are purely because the controlled airspace we have is a load of bollocks. It really is quite a pronounced corner to turn round at ESKDO for TARTN. Which is why you might be on a heading almost towards LANAK when you get the level restriction abeam TARTN. As 10W says why don't we cut out all the little niceties for a while. I won't like it as I'll feel I won't be doing my job properly but it might make pilots sit up and realise how much effort we put in to getting them on thier way as quickly as possible.
As an aside and just to prove it's not just BMA-kept hold of an EZY inbound to GLA yesterday longer than I would normally have done. Two and a half minutes before LANAK and passing 120 I asked his speed- "Oh 300 but we can do what you like". Hmm. My curt reply that he should be doing 250 didn't go down too well.
DFC- I've named another company there, so before I get the fairness police speech-Scottish D Watch.
As an aside and just to prove it's not just BMA-kept hold of an EZY inbound to GLA yesterday longer than I would normally have done. Two and a half minutes before LANAK and passing 120 I asked his speed- "Oh 300 but we can do what you like". Hmm. My curt reply that he should be doing 250 didn't go down too well.
DFC- I've named another company there, so before I get the fairness police speech-Scottish D Watch.
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10W
"To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down "
You should be doing that now for EDI inbounds. The trial started 14th Mar until 14th April and a SCON has been issued to that effect.
"To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down "
You should be doing that now for EDI inbounds. The trial started 14th Mar until 14th April and a SCON has been issued to that effect.
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10W
Thats the point... at TC we do not keep things on the routeings!!!
I think you misread my post. If we were to do so, nothing would get moving for ages.
DFC
If you re-read my post I did infer that with longer distances involved, an explanation may be more relevant.
To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down
The system used by TC works well in busy airspace, so let's go for it here too
I think you misread my post. If we were to do so, nothing would get moving for ages.
DFC
If you re-read my post I did infer that with longer distances involved, an explanation may be more relevant.
When you are flying airways and taken off a route, then yes, maybe you could expect a bit of an explanation, but please bear in mind the complexity of UK and other airspace.
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Jumbo Driver's comments on ambiguity are well worth further thought.
As it can be argued that when 'off-STAR' lateral and vertical constraints do not apply unless reiterated, some clarification - either local or national - is required.
(Note: there was a section in the AIP that described speed limitations and specifically referred to actually flying a STAR, SID or under ATC limitation, reinforcing that argument.)
More ambiguity comes when a speed-related query is answered by "standard speeds". Is that to be standard speeds as if you were flying the STAR or standard speed limits for the type of airspace? In Class A, eg London or Manchester, no limit below FL100.
Perhaps a note on the STAR plates that says "250 kts abeam SLPs when receiving vectors unless instructed otherwise", or words to that effect, where that is clearly the intention/understanding.
Edit: Realised this is straying somewhat from the original thread... worthy of a new one to discuss this topic?
As it can be argued that when 'off-STAR' lateral and vertical constraints do not apply unless reiterated, some clarification - either local or national - is required.
(Note: there was a section in the AIP that described speed limitations and specifically referred to actually flying a STAR, SID or under ATC limitation, reinforcing that argument.)
More ambiguity comes when a speed-related query is answered by "standard speeds". Is that to be standard speeds as if you were flying the STAR or standard speed limits for the type of airspace? In Class A, eg London or Manchester, no limit below FL100.
Perhaps a note on the STAR plates that says "250 kts abeam SLPs when receiving vectors unless instructed otherwise", or words to that effect, where that is clearly the intention/understanding.
Edit: Realised this is straying somewhat from the original thread... worthy of a new one to discuss this topic?
Last edited by King Muppet; 22nd Mar 2006 at 11:15.
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up
Plumaveloz,
This happened to me at ALC a few weeks ago. We were asked by ATC to keep as high a speed as possible for separation from a Transavia behind so maintained 320 kts. The Transavia aircraft was asked to reduce to 250 kts . Visibility at ALC was 4-5000m and we were using ILS 10. Our rocket scientist behind then asks to route direct 10 mile fix. This was refused and as we turned onto the ILS at a suitable speed which had been passed to ATC, the Transavia who was past VILNA was asked what his speed was, to which he cheerily replied "320 kts". These guys are not only bullying ATC they are wilfully ignoring ATC clearances. My mistake - I should have MOR'd it, I won't make that mistake again!
This happened to me at ALC a few weeks ago. We were asked by ATC to keep as high a speed as possible for separation from a Transavia behind so maintained 320 kts. The Transavia aircraft was asked to reduce to 250 kts . Visibility at ALC was 4-5000m and we were using ILS 10. Our rocket scientist behind then asks to route direct 10 mile fix. This was refused and as we turned onto the ILS at a suitable speed which had been passed to ATC, the Transavia who was past VILNA was asked what his speed was, to which he cheerily replied "320 kts". These guys are not only bullying ATC they are wilfully ignoring ATC clearances. My mistake - I should have MOR'd it, I won't make that mistake again!
I would like to thank you for the way you acted: Mantaining high speed, reporting when slowing down and best of all, you didn´t say a word about the unpolite behavior of your transavia´s colleagues. That helps us a lot. You guys at Easy do a great job and is a pleasure to work with you.
If you fly to Valencia Airport, I would like to let to know you. Send me a message plumaveloz at gmail dot com and I will do my best to get to you, even at your plane. I have access to the apron.
Best regards,
Ángel Gutiérrez
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I remember overhearing a D watch controller at LATCC say (words to the effect of) "BAW123, you may be number one in Europe but you are number 12at Gatwick" following repeated requests for something that nobody else was getting.
Excellent!
Excellent!
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Controller distractions by pilot requests
During the investigation of the mid-air collision over Germany in 2002, we had quite a discussion about the AeroLloyd pilot and his interaction with the controller. Just because you are the only one on frequency, does not mean that the controller only has one frequency. It was a stress that the controller could have done without on that particular night. However, the report did not appear to reflect the concern of the ATC working group on that matter. Still German report, German airline....
Surely if ATC request a speed in regulated airspeed and the readback is correct but then the aircraft does not comply then an offence is being commited?
These pilots and airlines that do not comply should be prosecuted as to fly in this manner may be to endanger the aircraft and its occupants not to mention other airspace users.
As a pilot who is (semi) retired from the industry I dearly loved I am quite appalled to hear of such antics from so-called professional pilots!
These pilots and airlines that do not comply should be prosecuted as to fly in this manner may be to endanger the aircraft and its occupants not to mention other airspace users.
As a pilot who is (semi) retired from the industry I dearly loved I am quite appalled to hear of such antics from so-called professional pilots!
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My tuppence worth of pet pilot hates-
'Speedy' drivers who when told 'higher FLs not available due to traffic' have the
neck to then ask "Who is the traffic"!!
Like it makes any difference who it is - YOU'RE NOT GETTING HIGHER!!!
Next time I'll ask him to check the EGT of his No. 2 engine. If they want to start questioning how I do my job I'll be only too happy to turn the tables.
"They don't like it up'em
Captain Mainwaring"
'Speedy' drivers who when told 'higher FLs not available due to traffic' have the
neck to then ask "Who is the traffic"!!Like it makes any
difference who it is - YOU'RE NOT GETTING HIGHER!!!Next time I'll ask him to check the EGT of his No. 2 engine. If they want to start questioning how I do my job I'll be only too happy to turn the tables.
"They don't like it up'em
Captain Mainwaring"
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Pilots of the scottish skies. If me and my sheep get our way.
Once we get a decent way of telling speed, or you are daft enough to tell us!..........it will be £30 fine and 3 points on your licence for PIC or £50 and no points. I make no bones it will be going to a Christmas fund and you are welcome to come and enjoy it.......it your as brave as the BMA lad coming to visit tomorrow................looking forward to it Mike!!!
Once we get a decent way of telling speed, or you are daft enough to tell us!..........it will be £30 fine and 3 points on your licence for PIC or £50 and no points. I make no bones it will be going to a Christmas fund and you are welcome to come and enjoy it.......it your as brave as the BMA lad coming to visit tomorrow................looking forward to it Mike!!!
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Very interesting thread indeed. What triggered my reply was unexpected appearance of TRA in negative connotation. I was very surprised. Always pleasent, helpful and cooperative. Never ever had I problems with them. Usually, it is UK airliners that are pain in the a.. To be precise, most of the times BAW and BAL. Twice I was asked about my radar separation minimum, so meny times they were complaining and asking for reason, even if you ask them to increase or reduce their speed by 0.01M. Not to mention level change! Blasphemy! Almost like JAT, Serbia's national carrier, who is the worst one, undoubtedly.
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Originally Posted by danceswithsheep
it your as brave as the BMA lad coming to visit tomorrow................looking forward to it Mike!!!
If "Mike" was or was not involved in the reason for starting this thred it is out of order to name them here!
Simply ensures that some pilots will not bother to visit and the benifits are lost.
Regards,
DFC
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[QUOTE=DFC]Out of order!
If "Mike" was or was not involved in the reason for starting this thred it is out of order to name them here!
Simply ensures that some pilots will not bother to visit and the benifits are lost.
Regards,
Some confusion maybe? "mike" is the guys pprune handle which bears no resemblance to his real name, page 1 of the thread. Anonyimity has not been compromised. Looking forward to talking to him today.
If "Mike" was or was not involved in the reason for starting this thred it is out of order to name them here!
Simply ensures that some pilots will not bother to visit and the benifits are lost.
Regards,
Some confusion maybe? "mike" is the guys pprune handle which bears no resemblance to his real name, page 1 of the thread. Anonyimity has not been compromised. Looking forward to talking to him today.
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"Mike" is definatley not his real name but a gentleman he is.
The pilot in question has just left Scottish and hopefully enjoyed his visit. You are all more than welcome and, with any luck, an exchange in views will provide a better working environment for us all.
DFC.......This is a forum for intelligent folks and I would always maintain privacy of people on here. My name is not really Danceswithsheep although I may change it by deed poll on the near future! This forum alone has led to me being educated by "Mike" today and I will be a better controller for it(some believe I could not get much worse). Keep your privacy but come visit, and push for Fam flights......its a big team a we are all part of it.
Love and kissses................SHEEP
The pilot in question has just left Scottish and hopefully enjoyed his visit. You are all more than welcome and, with any luck, an exchange in views will provide a better working environment for us all.
DFC.......This is a forum for intelligent folks and I would always maintain privacy of people on here. My name is not really Danceswithsheep although I may change it by deed poll on the near future! This forum alone has led to me being educated by "Mike" today and I will be a better controller for it(some believe I could not get much worse). Keep your privacy but come visit, and push for Fam flights......its a big team a we are all part of it.
Love and kissses................SHEEP
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Was good to see a BMA A320 pilot visit yesterday as a direct result of this thread. Danceswithsheep gave him the tour and got him plugged in on the Talla sector and it seemed to be a good two way learning process. Also, later in the day I had a Virgin B744 captain plug in with me on Deancross sector,it got a little bit "sporting" and I'm glad of that. It is often the case when visitors plug in with me and I'm explaining how busy a sector can be, it's really quiet and the only thing missing is the tumbleweed blowing across the ops room!
Both pilots commented on how much effort was being put in with planning and coordination when the controller is not transmitting on the frequency. Enjoyable day at work all in all.Best not tell Mr Barron I enjoyed it though,he'll re -classify it as a hobby and charge me for the privilege!
Both pilots commented on how much effort was being put in with planning and coordination when the controller is not transmitting on the frequency. Enjoyable day at work all in all.Best not tell Mr Barron I enjoyed it though,he'll re -classify it as a hobby and charge me for the privilege!
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My attention has just been drawn to this thread and I just wanted to say of couple of things. I am a pilot with said airline. I take an enormous personal pride in my dealings with ATC as we have a joint safety responsibility. Some of the sweeping generalisations being made in this thread are quite offensive, unnecessary, and outwith the characteristic professionalism that we all expect of eachother. Calling eachother names such as monkeys and f****wits does your profession an enormous disservice - IMHO more so than the original pilot transgression. I would urge you to consider how this thread would read to an outsider - I would be left thinking that both sides are as bad as eachother. Just my 2p worth.
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Scotpilot
So as too answer yuor comments, When I am on the R/T I try to provide a good service, when on my own time on a public forum, my thoughts are my own. There are no safety implications posting on here, whereas arguing with control instructions does.
From this thread, much goodness has come. I have been made aware, its not just me. An A320 pilot came in for a look around and I learnt more about a type I have not flown on(due to no Fam Flights) and I believe he also learnt a little more about what goes on in the Scottish TMA.
You are correct when you say that name calling is unprofessional, but we all vent and if the pilot in question, who I understand is well known for this kind of thing, had not increased my stress load in an otherwise organised traffic situation, this thread would not have started.
Just be aware that when you wind up a controller, increase the R/T with non standard calls, etc, we are unable to provide the best service possible and if you, God forbid, had an emergency while this gentleman was wittering about an Air Traffic Instruction, how would you feel about being unable to transmit your situation.
My advice is, if you are as professional as you say, then take the known pilots aside and have a word. CRM/TRM stretches beyond your cockpit/company.
So as too answer yuor comments, When I am on the R/T I try to provide a good service, when on my own time on a public forum, my thoughts are my own. There are no safety implications posting on here, whereas arguing with control instructions does.
From this thread, much goodness has come. I have been made aware, its not just me. An A320 pilot came in for a look around and I learnt more about a type I have not flown on(due to no Fam Flights) and I believe he also learnt a little more about what goes on in the Scottish TMA.
You are correct when you say that name calling is unprofessional, but we all vent and if the pilot in question, who I understand is well known for this kind of thing, had not increased my stress load in an otherwise organised traffic situation, this thread would not have started.
Just be aware that when you wind up a controller, increase the R/T with non standard calls, etc, we are unable to provide the best service possible and if you, God forbid, had an emergency while this gentleman was wittering about an Air Traffic Instruction, how would you feel about being unable to transmit your situation.
My advice is, if you are as professional as you say, then take the known pilots aside and have a word. CRM/TRM stretches beyond your cockpit/company.