civil controllers - gatco or union?
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civil controllers - gatco or union?
If your were to chose membership or either gatco or prospect which would it be?
I have been in the union for many years now but do not believe it gives any value whatsoever. Fair enough if you are based at one of NATS "important" units they are likely to be helpful, but to those at the minority, bottom banding units I cannot really see the benefits - they couldn't even find the time to come and explain the in's and out's of the recent pay deal, meaning it's members were voting for something they did not understand.
The only thing we receive for membership is a magazine about how nuclear workers won an award for good housekeeping or how scientists got new lab coats from their employers. Great for them but no interest to me as an ATCO
Obviously if you were to do something to put your job on the line the union may help, but as I see it both gatco and prospect will help out financially with any legal fees etc.
any thoughts?
I have been in the union for many years now but do not believe it gives any value whatsoever. Fair enough if you are based at one of NATS "important" units they are likely to be helpful, but to those at the minority, bottom banding units I cannot really see the benefits - they couldn't even find the time to come and explain the in's and out's of the recent pay deal, meaning it's members were voting for something they did not understand.
The only thing we receive for membership is a magazine about how nuclear workers won an award for good housekeeping or how scientists got new lab coats from their employers. Great for them but no interest to me as an ATCO
Obviously if you were to do something to put your job on the line the union may help, but as I see it both gatco and prospect will help out financially with any legal fees etc.
any thoughts?
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GATCO is not a union so has nothing to do with negotiating pay, etc. Prospect is the union which negotiates pay and conditions. Having been an ATCO for 31 years in the CAA before I retired and a union member all that time I'd say that your union did a pretty fine job for you in the last couple of years. Wish I'd been around to enjoy the pay deals!
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Absolutely - gatco is not a union so takes no part in pay deals.
NATS as a company is spending a fortune on teamwork courses to help us all work together, yet the union has managed to divide the workforce more than ever with the pay bands. Teamwork my ass!
The pay bands have been carefully worked out so the majority of the workforce are in the top 2 bands, meaning that as long as the union table an offer which pleases those at the top, it neither matters what is offered to the rest or what we think as our votes will not make a blind bit of difference.
The fact that out paid representatives cannot make the effort to come out to the units and explain the paydeals to us really makes me question why I am still a member.
I am not complaining in any way about what I am paid but purely wish to know other peoples opinions about union membership.....or not
NATS as a company is spending a fortune on teamwork courses to help us all work together, yet the union has managed to divide the workforce more than ever with the pay bands. Teamwork my ass!
The pay bands have been carefully worked out so the majority of the workforce are in the top 2 bands, meaning that as long as the union table an offer which pleases those at the top, it neither matters what is offered to the rest or what we think as our votes will not make a blind bit of difference.
The fact that out paid representatives cannot make the effort to come out to the units and explain the paydeals to us really makes me question why I am still a member.
I am not complaining in any way about what I am paid but purely wish to know other peoples opinions about union membership.....or not
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What you need to ask is would you have got a better deal had you not been represented by a union.
I like many feel as if the regionals have been well and truly shafted these last few years by the banding, however as I understand it NATS management intended it to happen it didn't come from the union ? ( prepared to be corrected here).
With issues about pensions coming to the forefront , see NATS section, it is vitally important that we have a strong union working together to ensure we don't get sent down the river.
Equally if you should have a personal issue the Union has been a godsend to many.
Prospect is far from perfect and really needs to realise that the lower banded units deserve equal representation which many lower band units do not feel they are getting, but without it where would we be ?
I like many feel as if the regionals have been well and truly shafted these last few years by the banding, however as I understand it NATS management intended it to happen it didn't come from the union ? ( prepared to be corrected here).
With issues about pensions coming to the forefront , see NATS section, it is vitally important that we have a strong union working together to ensure we don't get sent down the river.
Equally if you should have a personal issue the Union has been a godsend to many.
Prospect is far from perfect and really needs to realise that the lower banded units deserve equal representation which many lower band units do not feel they are getting, but without it where would we be ?
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I work at TC, a Band 5 unit, and I think I earn every penny I get.
HOWEVER - I believe there are some other units that have been shafted by banding.
Regardless of the above - The union do try to do a good job in difficult circumstances (not a great job, but a good one all things considered) - if you are not happy, why don't you volunteer to do it?
I believe the real reason behind our many predicaments is the governement decision to sell our skies (which came from a party that we (the democratic majority) voted in - a political party which had vehemently opposed privatisation when the Tories were in power).
I, like Flower believe that we need a strong Union now, more so than ever, especially with the Pensions coming under scrutiny in March - just see how BA etc were shafted by their employers.
HOWEVER - I believe there are some other units that have been shafted by banding.
Regardless of the above - The union do try to do a good job in difficult circumstances (not a great job, but a good one all things considered) - if you are not happy, why don't you volunteer to do it?
I believe the real reason behind our many predicaments is the governement decision to sell our skies (which came from a party that we (the democratic majority) voted in - a political party which had vehemently opposed privatisation when the Tories were in power).
I, like Flower believe that we need a strong Union now, more so than ever, especially with the Pensions coming under scrutiny in March - just see how BA etc were shafted by their employers.
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NATS as a company is spending a fortune on teamwork courses to help us all work together
NTUS (Prospect and PCS) are challenging NATS about their "plans". Make sure they have your support.
A very pissed off
BEX.
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Bexil,
with you there 110% - we can spend millions on TRM, 'teaching' common sense (could have save at least half the cost if it had been run in house),
But we can't afford to give us pensions
with you there 110% - we can spend millions on TRM, 'teaching' common sense (could have save at least half the cost if it had been run in house),
But we can't afford to give us pensions
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What the odds of any pension changes being placed on new entrants,and NSL Airport staff first.
Would Prospect protect the Lower Band units.Would the Higher Band units be prepared to help.I don't think so somehow. :
Never got anything out of Gatco,apart from it was tax deductable.Prospect costs about £170pa.Got shafted by them 3 times now.Band 2 unit doing a Band 4 job
Maybe £170 would be better spent at the Bookies.At least I might get something in return.
Would Prospect protect the Lower Band units.Would the Higher Band units be prepared to help.I don't think so somehow.
:Never got anything out of Gatco,apart from it was tax deductable.Prospect costs about £170pa.Got shafted by them 3 times now.Band 2 unit doing a Band 4 job
Maybe £170 would be better spent at the Bookies.At least I might get something in return.
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What the odds of any pension changes being placed on new entrants,and NSL Airport staff first.
Perhaps if we all become united on the pensions issue, the banding structure could be more easily revisited by PROSPECT when they next talk to management about it? The union would certainly be weilding a bigger stick in any banding negotiations with management.
The Pension concerns everyones future. It is nothing to do with banding, so please try put your issues about that to one side for the moment, and concentrate on retaining your hard won pension entitlement.
The baddies here aren't the union(s).
Best rgds
BEX.
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Mr Dyce,
NATS is already proposing that the pension scheme closes to new entrants.
NATS has also proposed that the airports pay is negotiated seperately from NERL - PROSPECT said no. So that's easily got your 170 quid back.
Forget about the unit banding and everyone examine how much their basic pensionable pay has risen in 5 years.
Prospect may not be perfect but you're doing better because of them.
This is a time to stick together - your pension is now far more at risk than ever before.
Get involved - if you don't see the value in the union - why not get come along and give up your time instead of complaining.
NATS is already proposing that the pension scheme closes to new entrants.
NATS has also proposed that the airports pay is negotiated seperately from NERL - PROSPECT said no. So that's easily got your 170 quid back.
Forget about the unit banding and everyone examine how much their basic pensionable pay has risen in 5 years.
Prospect may not be perfect but you're doing better because of them.
This is a time to stick together - your pension is now far more at risk than ever before.
Get involved - if you don't see the value in the union - why not get come along and give up your time instead of complaining.
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"This is a time to stick together"
getting off topic here but you are correct that we need to stick together to protect our pensions. However until now the lower banded units' voices have not been heard, why should they be?.
In a possible situation where the band 4/5 (the majority) pensions were guaranteed and band 1-3 given reduced provisions how would those at the band 4/5 (the majority) units vote?
Whatever those really affected (bands 1-3) think might not matter as they are only in the regional minority and would the union really stand up and fight it, or would they simply issue yet another ballot paper, going round the higher band units explaining the situation and completely ignoring the rest of us (sound familiar?)
Is it still time to stick together???
Lets hope for everyones sake this just forum talk.
If they want to save some money, leave our pensions and get rid of the majority of those paperpushers hiding within our company
simple!
getting off topic here but you are correct that we need to stick together to protect our pensions. However until now the lower banded units' voices have not been heard, why should they be?.
In a possible situation where the band 4/5 (the majority) pensions were guaranteed and band 1-3 given reduced provisions how would those at the band 4/5 (the majority) units vote?
Whatever those really affected (bands 1-3) think might not matter as they are only in the regional minority and would the union really stand up and fight it, or would they simply issue yet another ballot paper, going round the higher band units explaining the situation and completely ignoring the rest of us (sound familiar?)
Is it still time to stick together???
Lets hope for everyones sake this just forum talk.
If they want to save some money, leave our pensions and get rid of the majority of those paperpushers hiding within our company
simple!
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Dot to Dot.
No, your scenario on pensions is not acceptable to ANY unit, regardless of their banding.
Why? It DIVIDES the pension scheme. Read the NTUS circular about what would undoubtedly happen if NATS was allowed to do this. ALL people at all units would suffer.
Once more for emaphsis, this is not about banding, that is a separate issue.(and one that I agree needs attending to)
It is very, very much about EVERYONE's hard won pension rights. Unchallenged every NATS employee will be worse off.(perhaps not certain managers though
)
Make your views known to your rep, AND your Unit manager.
Best rgds
BEX
No, your scenario on pensions is not acceptable to ANY unit, regardless of their banding.
Why? It DIVIDES the pension scheme. Read the NTUS circular about what would undoubtedly happen if NATS was allowed to do this. ALL people at all units would suffer.
Once more for emaphsis, this is not about banding, that is a separate issue.(and one that I agree needs attending to)
It is very, very much about EVERYONE's hard won pension rights. Unchallenged every NATS employee will be worse off.(perhaps not certain managers though
)Make your views known to your rep, AND your Unit manager.
Best rgds
BEX
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Mr Bobble,
I have been to just about every Union meeting here over god knows how many years,which equates to considerably more than the current reps.I would have gone to see them this time if Prospect could be bothered turning up.
I agree that we should stick together.However it's fine to say that if you never been effected by the agreements of Prospect.Here they have done a lot of damage over issues,none of which touched Atco 2,Band 4/5 units.
I reckon it's naive to think that Prospect could stop changes to pensions,especially if it concerns NSL staff and new entrants.Easy target especially the lower paid units.The higher ones ain't going to care.I'm alright Jack
I have been to just about every Union meeting here over god knows how many years,which equates to considerably more than the current reps.I would have gone to see them this time if Prospect could be bothered turning up.
I agree that we should stick together.However it's fine to say that if you never been effected by the agreements of Prospect.Here they have done a lot of damage over issues,none of which touched Atco 2,Band 4/5 units.
I reckon it's naive to think that Prospect could stop changes to pensions,especially if it concerns NSL staff and new entrants.Easy target especially the lower paid units.The higher ones ain't going to care.I'm alright Jack
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Dot to Dot
Get it into your head - this is not a banding issue; it will affect everyone.
If you want to make a banding issue out of it then think of this... we at the band 5 units will lose out more than guys at band 1 or 2 units because our pension is bigger as it stands at the moment.
Legally, the company could not change pension rights based on banding; believe me, it is against employment law to divide that way.
Legally; they can change pension rights for new joiners - it is a T&C that you sign up to when you join.
If we allow that now, then in 20 yrs time as todays main workforce approach retirement, the people who have joined up on reduced pension will be in the majority. They could vote down our rights.
Despite talks about 'pots of money' it is the people who are working now are paying for the pensions of those who have retired - fact. That is why the governement is in the poo with pensions - the current workforce is reducing in numbers compared to retirees.
If we allow ourselves to be divided on this issue and sell people down the river, they are not gong to be willing to fund out pension when we retire.
We need to have the backbone to take industrial action if it comes to it.
Banding is a totally separate issue and should be treated as such - it should no even be mentioned on this thread - it is irrelevant.
Get it into your head - this is not a banding issue; it will affect everyone.
If you want to make a banding issue out of it then think of this... we at the band 5 units will lose out more than guys at band 1 or 2 units because our pension is bigger as it stands at the moment.
Legally, the company could not change pension rights based on banding; believe me, it is against employment law to divide that way.
Legally; they can change pension rights for new joiners - it is a T&C that you sign up to when you join.
If we allow that now, then in 20 yrs time as todays main workforce approach retirement, the people who have joined up on reduced pension will be in the majority. They could vote down our rights.
Despite talks about 'pots of money' it is the people who are working now are paying for the pensions of those who have retired - fact. That is why the governement is in the poo with pensions - the current workforce is reducing in numbers compared to retirees.
If we allow ourselves to be divided on this issue and sell people down the river, they are not gong to be willing to fund out pension when we retire.
We need to have the backbone to take industrial action if it comes to it.
Banding is a totally separate issue and should be treated as such - it should no even be mentioned on this thread - it is irrelevant.
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A couple of things
1. They cannot change the pension you receive according to the unit you work at. It is 1 scheme for all staff in it - regardless of grade.
2. I think if we are going to carry on discussing pensions then move it to the NATS forum where there is already a thread about it and not discuss it in public.
1. They cannot change the pension you receive according to the unit you work at. It is 1 scheme for all staff in it - regardless of grade.
2. I think if we are going to carry on discussing pensions then move it to the NATS forum where there is already a thread about it and not discuss it in public.
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Your pension changing is not a possibilty it is inevitable. NATS will not be able to finance such an expensive pension scheme the same as every other company in the UK cannot. British Airways owes its pension scheme around 1.5 billion pounds.
No doubt you will spend the next few years arguing about it but believe me new entrants to NATS will not get the same pension as present members it is simply not possible. Get used to it and save yourself the stress of arguing about it and think yourselves lucky you have the pension benifits you have.
Save your union membership fees they wont be able to do anything about it. Stick with GATCO much better value for money.
No doubt you will spend the next few years arguing about it but believe me new entrants to NATS will not get the same pension as present members it is simply not possible. Get used to it and save yourself the stress of arguing about it and think yourselves lucky you have the pension benifits you have.
Save your union membership fees they wont be able to do anything about it. Stick with GATCO much better value for money.
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Originally Posted by siam
Your pension changing is not a possibilty it is inevitable.....
Get used to it and save yourself the stress of arguing about it and think yourselves lucky you have the pension benifits you have.
Save your union membership fees they wont be able to do anything about it. Stick with GATCO much better value for money.
Get used to it and save yourself the stress of arguing about it and think yourselves lucky you have the pension benifits you have.
Save your union membership fees they wont be able to do anything about it. Stick with GATCO much better value for money.
And what do GATCO offer for their monthly payments that is better value for money?