civil controllers - gatco or union?
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UKATCO 535
The point I was half making was that I would have trouble justifying to myself striking over a pay deal (unles it was a paycut in real terms) - plus we would have zero public support. However if it came to conditions, a safety issue or our pension, then I have no problem walking out - and as DC10 says, I think we would have some support from the public.
I agree any industrial action cannot be half hearted/staggered. This happened before in the 80s (before my time) and I believe that the airfields went 1 day and the centres the next. It has to be 1 out all out at the same time.
The Union needs to start addressing this now (maybe they are) and firing a couple of shots across managements bows and stop this thing dead in the water.
The point I was half making was that I would have trouble justifying to myself striking over a pay deal (unles it was a paycut in real terms) - plus we would have zero public support. However if it came to conditions, a safety issue or our pension, then I have no problem walking out - and as DC10 says, I think we would have some support from the public.
I agree any industrial action cannot be half hearted/staggered. This happened before in the 80s (before my time) and I believe that the airfields went 1 day and the centres the next. It has to be 1 out all out at the same time.
The Union needs to start addressing this now (maybe they are) and firing a couple of shots across managements bows and stop this thing dead in the water.
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UKATCO535 no I am not management just a lowly ATCO and I do understand your job o great and mighty one. Whilst ATCO's are about as indispensable as an employee can be. Nobody in this world is totally indispensable Ronald Regan showed his ATCO's that.
DC10 are you seriously telling me you think it would appropriate to strike over the rights of future employees and you expect the public to back you? If you think the public would back the industrial action of group of people on 75k plus a year, who in the process of striking would ruin everyone's holidays, you are a fool and living in the blinkered unrealistic world that many ATCO's I have met seem to.
DC10 are you seriously telling me you think it would appropriate to strike over the rights of future employees and you expect the public to back you? If you think the public would back the industrial action of group of people on 75k plus a year, who in the process of striking would ruin everyone's holidays, you are a fool and living in the blinkered unrealistic world that many ATCO's I have met seem to.
niknak
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Back to the original post, I'm a member of both, as are the majority of ATCOs at our place.
The concensus is that while Prospect represent us well in the work place, if we ever really needed specialist professional assistance, GATCO would be the best people to do it.
Another £6 per month, but worth it if the worst ever happened.
The concensus is that while Prospect represent us well in the work place, if we ever really needed specialist professional assistance, GATCO would be the best people to do it.
Another £6 per month, but worth it if the worst ever happened.
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Siam,
I would strike unhesitatingly!. Our salaries do not come into it. We are striking to protect our pension and our present and future colleagues. If it ruins other peoples holidays, so be it!, we would not be the first or last to do that. On a personal note I retire shortly and it actually does not affect me, however I would happily take the financial penalty of strike action to guarantee my colleagues future pension. I am sure that this proposal is the first of many actions to destroy our pension scheme and it is in my interest to defend it as I am sure that having retired it may still affect my future benefits.
I would strike unhesitatingly!. Our salaries do not come into it. We are striking to protect our pension and our present and future colleagues. If it ruins other peoples holidays, so be it!, we would not be the first or last to do that. On a personal note I retire shortly and it actually does not affect me, however I would happily take the financial penalty of strike action to guarantee my colleagues future pension. I am sure that this proposal is the first of many actions to destroy our pension scheme and it is in my interest to defend it as I am sure that having retired it may still affect my future benefits.
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Clearly SIAM is kind of mangement lacky, if not I trust he asked not to take the "pay and conditions" deal in order to save the company money!
As previous posts have pointed out, many final salary schemes are in trouble because they are in deficit, CAAPS is not. If you want to see how schemes work in the public sector maybe you should try MPs - 1/40th X years, not our 1/59th! I bet their scheme keeps going.
We are all in the scheme together and as such should take action together to maintain the conditions and pensions we signed up for.
As previous posts have pointed out, many final salary schemes are in trouble because they are in deficit, CAAPS is not. If you want to see how schemes work in the public sector maybe you should try MPs - 1/40th X years, not our 1/59th! I bet their scheme keeps going.
We are all in the scheme together and as such should take action together to maintain the conditions and pensions we signed up for.
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UKATCO535 no I am not management just a lowly ATCO and I do understand your job o great and mighty one.
You obviously cannot be bothered to read.
The pay is not an issue, it is the pension.
Peoples holidays or my pension?? I know which one I care more about. The same one as my colleagues. I don't give a monkeys about spoiling peples holidays to secure my future.
Firemen strike - peoples lives or pay and conditions?? they have no qualms about taking action.
It is not just the new joiners who would suffer. Anyone who joined after April 2001 would be in serious danger, anyone joining before would still be right to worry.
Voting to allow this change will screw us up in future years. You are either management or non NATS. If that is not the case, you need to take a long hard look at how the pension works and how well it is funded, because you are seriously mis informed.
If the company feels it wants to take a pension break, as it has in the past and if the fund managers say that that is fine, then that is another matter. Changing the pension is not an option as far as I and many others are concerned.
They have told us in the recent past that the fund is very healthy, hence they have taken payment breaks while we continue to contribute. They have been lying to us in the past or are now.
Tha management are totally untrustworthy nowadays IMHO.
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IMHO the strike by firemen didn't win them many friends. I can't imagine a strike by controllers would either.
I didn't see much concern for future employees when the vote agreed to halve their pay (and, therefore, reduce pension contributions).
Judging by the turnout for the vote, do people really think a strike is a realistic proposition?!
Just my thoughts, for what it's worth....
I didn't see much concern for future employees when the vote agreed to halve their pay (and, therefore, reduce pension contributions).
Judging by the turnout for the vote, do people really think a strike is a realistic proposition?!
Just my thoughts, for what it's worth....
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I always get the impression that Joe Public think we are always on strike at the moment as they fail to realise that it is the rest of Europes ATCO's that strike so regularly, so what have we got to lose.
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ATCO 535 no I am not mis informed I am just aware of what is hapening in the real world not the Utopia you think you live in. Try reading a paper and have a look at what is happening to eveyone else in the world.
The firemen did strike and it got them no where, in fact if you speak to a fireman I think you will find they are now worse off as a result of their industrial action ie. they followed the unrealistic mis informed advice of their ridiculous union. Which brings us back to the original topic union or gatco. Gatco as far as I am concerned I dont see the point of financing a bunch of militant dinosaurs who refuse to acept the realities of life in the 21st century.
As you are due for retirement soon you are lucky but the rest of the world has a pension problem and will have to deal with it hopefully sooner rather that later. Blinkered fools like you threatening industrial action do not help matters.
Enjoy your unsustainable retirement benefits and think yourself lucky.
The firemen did strike and it got them no where, in fact if you speak to a fireman I think you will find they are now worse off as a result of their industrial action ie. they followed the unrealistic mis informed advice of their ridiculous union. Which brings us back to the original topic union or gatco. Gatco as far as I am concerned I dont see the point of financing a bunch of militant dinosaurs who refuse to acept the realities of life in the 21st century.
As you are due for retirement soon you are lucky but the rest of the world has a pension problem and will have to deal with it hopefully sooner rather that later. Blinkered fools like you threatening industrial action do not help matters.
Enjoy your unsustainable retirement benefits and think yourself lucky.
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Siam,
if you are NATS perhaps you should take a look at the NATS section and the news reports on pensions and how much we can lose if taken out of final salary pension schemes.
As one of those who would be worse off excuse me if I would strike over my future security.
We do live in the real world that is why we know we have to do what we can to protect our future, you may choose not to be a member of PROSPECT that is fine but do not deride those of us who are and will go the extra mile to ensure we can retire in comfort not penury.
if you are NATS perhaps you should take a look at the NATS section and the news reports on pensions and how much we can lose if taken out of final salary pension schemes.
As one of those who would be worse off excuse me if I would strike over my future security.
We do live in the real world that is why we know we have to do what we can to protect our future, you may choose not to be a member of PROSPECT that is fine but do not deride those of us who are and will go the extra mile to ensure we can retire in comfort not penury.
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If you read the projections for when the world oil reserves are going to run out you find some pretty interesting figures.
The most pessimistic one I read is that the world's KNOWN oil reserves will be gone in 41 years. That would put all of us out of a job in 41 years unless they find some radical new aviation fuel. So there will be no-one employed to worry about the pension anyway.
The most pessimistic one I read is that the world's KNOWN oil reserves will be gone in 41 years. That would put all of us out of a job in 41 years unless they find some radical new aviation fuel. So there will be no-one employed to worry about the pension anyway.
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Flower I know how much would be lost by coming out of the scheme I am not suggesting any body should consider such a thing. I am merely saying that at some time in the not to distant future the final salary pension scheme will be closed to new employees like in every other industry in our country, whether you like it or not they are too expensive get used to it.
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Oh sorry Siam,
I did not realise that what you meant was that as you are already in the company you do not give a monkeys about new joiners. Must be great to work with you.
If we allow this to go through, in a few years time, the new joiners, who will be in the majority, will be enticed by management to vote away our penson rights for a slightly better deal - get real! You will end up coming out of the scheme whether you want to or not if this management ploy works.
I do not live in Utopia - I have done other jobs before this one and am very worldly wise.
I am not near retirment - I have not said anything to indicate that I am in any of my posts, it is becoming obvious that your ability to grasp facts is lacking.
I assume we cannot rely on you to provide a unified front.
It is you - not everyone on here who is saying they will strike, that is shortsighted.
You strike me as the type of person who is happy to sit back and take all the benefits, without doing anything to gain them.
Just because other pension funds have failed due to mis management does not mean ours has to - it is very healthy at the moment. In fact healthy enough that the company is subsidising ATCO 1s' pension.
I did not realise that what you meant was that as you are already in the company you do not give a monkeys about new joiners. Must be great to work with you.
Flower I know how much would be lost by coming out of the scheme I am not suggesting any body should consider such a thing
I do not live in Utopia - I have done other jobs before this one and am very worldly wise.
I am not near retirment - I have not said anything to indicate that I am in any of my posts, it is becoming obvious that your ability to grasp facts is lacking.
I assume we cannot rely on you to provide a unified front.
It is you - not everyone on here who is saying they will strike, that is shortsighted.
You strike me as the type of person who is happy to sit back and take all the benefits, without doing anything to gain them.
Just because other pension funds have failed due to mis management does not mean ours has to - it is very healthy at the moment. In fact healthy enough that the company is subsidising ATCO 1s' pension.
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Originally Posted by siam
Flower I know how much would be lost by coming out of the scheme I am not suggesting any body should consider such a thing. I am merely saying that at some time in the not to distant future the final salary pension scheme will be closed to new employees like in every other industry in our country, whether you like it or not they are too expensive get used to it.
It was that long ago that we were being told the pension scheme was in such good shape that management could take a payment holiday - no they are bitching about their contribution rising from 12% tp 30%, which I believe it was at shortly before their payment holiday.
I think that managemtn are jumping on the pension bandwagon and using at a means to try and cut costs.
If you jump on the bandwagon you can get taken to places you dont want to be (like band camp)
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ATCO535 the last part of my last reply regading retiring soon was meant for DC10 I do apologise for my slackness.
As far as grasping the facts goes I think you are the one with the problem I do not believe I have ever suggested anybody takes industrial action I am saying it would be ridiculous to do so. Please correct me if I am wrong o very worldly wise one.
I am simply making a prediction that at some time in the near future NATS will close the pension scheme to new joiners at which time the union will stir up a load of trouble trying to protect a scheme that the rest of the world are finding impossible to provide. Which is one of the reasons I would say GATCO not union which was the original thread at some time was it not?
Worldy wise ATCO535 I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the meaning of life I am looking for guidance maybe you can help?
As far as grasping the facts goes I think you are the one with the problem I do not believe I have ever suggested anybody takes industrial action I am saying it would be ridiculous to do so. Please correct me if I am wrong o very worldly wise one.
I am simply making a prediction that at some time in the near future NATS will close the pension scheme to new joiners at which time the union will stir up a load of trouble trying to protect a scheme that the rest of the world are finding impossible to provide. Which is one of the reasons I would say GATCO not union which was the original thread at some time was it not?
Worldy wise ATCO535 I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the meaning of life I am looking for guidance maybe you can help?
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siam,
I really can't believe you are a NATS employee. GATCO has ,and never will, have any say or input into our conditions of service. What do you actually get for your subs anyway-a glossy magazine where you can read about ex valid controllers living it up in Rhodes or wherever the next conference happens to be.
Just to prove you are what you say you are I would suggest that you go to the NATS forum and continue the pensions debate there. I also suspect that you have absolutely no idea about the history of the paension fund or it's present state. I look forward to seeing you in "another place"-your inability or reluctance to do so will enable people here to decide your status to comment on OUR pension scheme-almost certainly,I suspect, not yours.
I really can't believe you are a NATS employee. GATCO has ,and never will, have any say or input into our conditions of service. What do you actually get for your subs anyway-a glossy magazine where you can read about ex valid controllers living it up in Rhodes or wherever the next conference happens to be.
Just to prove you are what you say you are I would suggest that you go to the NATS forum and continue the pensions debate there. I also suspect that you have absolutely no idea about the history of the paension fund or it's present state. I look forward to seeing you in "another place"-your inability or reluctance to do so will enable people here to decide your status to comment on OUR pension scheme-almost certainly,I suspect, not yours.
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GATCO is a body concerned with professional issues in ATC, such as national policy, airspace, etc. It is not a union.
Prospect is a union, concerned with terms and conditions of employment and renumeration. It does so collectively, as well as providing support for personal cases.
So, back to the original query, if you want to be part of an organisation which protects what you earn and are likely to earn in the future (employed or retired), then only one of the named organisations will do that for you.
Or join neither and let everyone else fight your battles, although you can join in the canteen debates and pretend you are a member anyway
Prospect is a union, concerned with terms and conditions of employment and renumeration. It does so collectively, as well as providing support for personal cases.
So, back to the original query, if you want to be part of an organisation which protects what you earn and are likely to earn in the future (employed or retired), then only one of the named organisations will do that for you.
Or join neither and let everyone else fight your battles, although you can join in the canteen debates and pretend you are a member anyway
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PPrUne RADAR has answered the orignal query rather nicely.
The OTHER question, about Pensions, has not been addressed at all by SIAM.
I am still waiting any explanation as to why CAAPS is unsustainable. ALL the evidence (already alluded to) points to the fact that it is in good health and will remain so. Apparently much to the annoyance of people like SIAM and NATS management.
When the EVIDENCE that CAAPS can't continue is presented by SIAM I will take his minority opinions more seriously. Until then I might suggest that the rest of us remain in the real world, defending OUR pension scheme.
Rgds BEX
The OTHER question, about Pensions, has not been addressed at all by SIAM.
I am still waiting any explanation as to why CAAPS is unsustainable. ALL the evidence (already alluded to) points to the fact that it is in good health and will remain so. Apparently much to the annoyance of people like SIAM and NATS management.
When the EVIDENCE that CAAPS can't continue is presented by SIAM I will take his minority opinions more seriously. Until then I might suggest that the rest of us remain in the real world, defending OUR pension scheme.
Rgds BEX
