civil controllers - gatco or union?
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They wont do away with your pension. They will probably change it like reducing benifits or raising contributions for some members. But they will stop new employees entering the scheme at some time in the future that is 100% certain. Your pension scheme in unsustainable for a private company and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Pension schemes cost a lot of money and somebody has to pay for them and the sooner society realises this the better.
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Nothing is inevitable at all.
Please to all those guys like myself at lower banded units take the banding equation out of this, we all know we have been dealt a bum deal. A strong union is needed now and a strong union successfully dealing with the pension issue will as has already been said be in a better position to help us sort out the mess that is banding at the lower scales.
Since the re banding has come in many of our colleagues at higher banded units have become aware of just how badly it was dealt with.
I, when the banding came in was ready to throw in the towel with Prospect but decided that it was better to be in than out, this isn't just about your annual pay rise, but all issues concerning shifts WP etc. We have people running the company who want to run us purely on a commercial basis they are trying to reduce costs left right and centre and of course the highest cost factor within our company is us. If they wish to succeed they want a disjointed workforce, if we are to win we have to stand as one and show that we wont just be steamrollered.
It is absolutely right that PROSPECT is made aware that they must represent everyone and even if they say they do the perception is they don't. However we do really need to stand firm on this and the union is the best way forward to look after our financial future with Pensions
Please to all those guys like myself at lower banded units take the banding equation out of this, we all know we have been dealt a bum deal. A strong union is needed now and a strong union successfully dealing with the pension issue will as has already been said be in a better position to help us sort out the mess that is banding at the lower scales.
Since the re banding has come in many of our colleagues at higher banded units have become aware of just how badly it was dealt with.
I, when the banding came in was ready to throw in the towel with Prospect but decided that it was better to be in than out, this isn't just about your annual pay rise, but all issues concerning shifts WP etc. We have people running the company who want to run us purely on a commercial basis they are trying to reduce costs left right and centre and of course the highest cost factor within our company is us. If they wish to succeed they want a disjointed workforce, if we are to win we have to stand as one and show that we wont just be steamrollered.
It is absolutely right that PROSPECT is made aware that they must represent everyone and even if they say they do the perception is they don't. However we do really need to stand firm on this and the union is the best way forward to look after our financial future with Pensions
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Ahem, SIAM,
Says who? Chapter and Verse please.
The CAAPS is actually in VERY good order, and can easily cover it's pension obligations.
I believe this has a lot more to do with certain management individuals in NATS spying opportunities to reduce costs (NATS payments to CAAPS).
Other pension schemes are not quite as healthy as CAAPS. NATS mangement is seeking, quite wrongly, to encourage the view that in common with these other schemes, CAAPS needs to be tampered with. It does not.
This "mis direction" alone makes my blood boil.
The only people to gain from this will be NATS managers. DOn't let them get away with it. Question EVERYTHING they say on the matter.
Best rgds
BEX
Your pension scheme in unsustainable for a private company and there is nothing anyone can do about it
The CAAPS is actually in VERY good order, and can easily cover it's pension obligations.
I believe this has a lot more to do with certain management individuals in NATS spying opportunities to reduce costs (NATS payments to CAAPS).
Other pension schemes are not quite as healthy as CAAPS. NATS mangement is seeking, quite wrongly, to encourage the view that in common with these other schemes, CAAPS needs to be tampered with. It does not.
This "mis direction" alone makes my blood boil.
The only people to gain from this will be NATS managers. DOn't let them get away with it. Question EVERYTHING they say on the matter.
Best rgds
BEX
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Siam
I do not know who you are or who you work for (are you some management mole?), but please do not treat us like imbeciles. We know that it costs money to run a pension pot.
As Flower says NATS as a company is becoming more and more penny pinching. This is understandable in a business sense, however, woe betide them if they screw us about much more. Banding is already in, and is not a good thing. Conditions are being chipped away all the time whilst we are expected to work harder - look at this years traffic figures.
A lot of us are of the opinion that although conditions are not great, at least once we stop working our collective nads off, we will have a good pension to retire on.
The company has already taken several 'pension breaks' and each time they said that it was because the pot was overfull and that doing so would in no way affect our pension. Now it appears they were either lying to us then or are doing so now.
If they continue to make the workforce unhappy, there is going to be an incident because people will not be concentrating properly.
It is about time we stood as one and if that means industrial action then so be it. We are a commodity to the company but unlike the management, we are not easily replaceable.
We, as a united group, have a huge powerbase. The time to use it may have come. Our European counterparts strike at the drop of a hat, we have more justification over this issue.
I do not know who you are or who you work for (are you some management mole?), but please do not treat us like imbeciles. We know that it costs money to run a pension pot.
As Flower says NATS as a company is becoming more and more penny pinching. This is understandable in a business sense, however, woe betide them if they screw us about much more. Banding is already in, and is not a good thing. Conditions are being chipped away all the time whilst we are expected to work harder - look at this years traffic figures.
A lot of us are of the opinion that although conditions are not great, at least once we stop working our collective nads off, we will have a good pension to retire on.
The company has already taken several 'pension breaks' and each time they said that it was because the pot was overfull and that doing so would in no way affect our pension. Now it appears they were either lying to us then or are doing so now.
If they continue to make the workforce unhappy, there is going to be an incident because people will not be concentrating properly.
It is about time we stood as one and if that means industrial action then so be it. We are a commodity to the company but unlike the management, we are not easily replaceable.
We, as a united group, have a huge powerbase. The time to use it may have come. Our European counterparts strike at the drop of a hat, we have more justification over this issue.
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[QUOTE=ukatco_535]Siam
I do not know who you are or who you work for (are you some management mole?), but please do not treat us like imbeciles. QUOTE]
Precisely why this discussion should be continued on the NATS Forum.
This was originally about the perceived benefits if GATCO Vs Union - not the NATS Pension.
I do not know who you are or who you work for (are you some management mole?), but please do not treat us like imbeciles. QUOTE]
Precisely why this discussion should be continued on the NATS Forum.
This was originally about the perceived benefits if GATCO Vs Union - not the NATS Pension.
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As well as BA and NATS, bmi are also about to have an attack made on their pension scheme.
Must be an 'Airline Group' thing ??
It's definitely not a 'banding' issue, it's one that affects everyone. I thought the staff were all employed by NATS (as the holding company), whose costs were then met by NERL and NSL for the individual units ?? That most definitely puts us all in the same boat.
Our pension scheme is in good order with a healthy surplus at the last report. With good management by the trustees, there is no reason for that to change. It's more a case of current NATS management trying to spend less on pensions, making more profit, and reducing the benefits (and thus costs) to staff in the long run.
The only people that will let them get away with that are NATS staff who don't fight it.
Must be an 'Airline Group' thing ??
It's definitely not a 'banding' issue, it's one that affects everyone. I thought the staff were all employed by NATS (as the holding company), whose costs were then met by NERL and NSL for the individual units ?? That most definitely puts us all in the same boat.
Our pension scheme is in good order with a healthy surplus at the last report. With good management by the trustees, there is no reason for that to change. It's more a case of current NATS management trying to spend less on pensions, making more profit, and reducing the benefits (and thus costs) to staff in the long run.
The only people that will let them get away with that are NATS staff who don't fight it.
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Very few if any UK companies are able to offer final salary pension schemes local councils are in the process of stopping them for new employees. So if the government and some of the largest most sucessful companies in the world cannot finance them what makes you think NATS will be able to do it. You have been cocooned in the public sector for too long welcome to the private sector where you are no longer subsidised by the British tax payer.
NATS WILL stop new entrants from entering the scheme at some time in the future and no amount of moaning and feet stomping from you will stop them. Pension financing is a problem for everyone in the western world, whilst I realise ATCO's think they one step away from god, it WILL be a problem for you to get used to it.
NATS WILL stop new entrants from entering the scheme at some time in the future and no amount of moaning and feet stomping from you will stop them. Pension financing is a problem for everyone in the western world, whilst I realise ATCO's think they one step away from god, it WILL be a problem for you to get used to it.
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Originally Posted by siam
You have been cocooned in the public sector for too long welcome to the private sector where you are no longer subsidised by the British tax payer......whilst I realise ATCO's think they one step away from god, it WILL be a problem for you to get used to it.
Good argument Siam. Well constructed and put together.
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welcome to the private sector where you are no longer subsidised by the British tax payer.
The British taxpayer stopped contributing many years ago, well before NATS was SEMI- privatised. Indeed one of the arguments when NATS was earmarked for sale was that it was NOT a drain on the British Taxpayer as it was completely self financing and recieved NOTHING from the treasury.
NATS was sold to fill a hole in Gordon Browns Budget. No other reason.
NATS WILL stop new entrants from entering the scheme at some time in the future and no amount of moaning and feet stomping from you will stop them.
In the meantime, I'm still waiting for chapter and verse on why you think CAAPS, specifically, cannot continue.
Best rgds
BEX
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Bexil I fully understand NATS history and as you correctly point out the tax payer no longer contributes which is why at some point in the future NATS will have problems financing its pension scheme.
Unless of course it intends to dramatically raise its charges to the airlines and airports.
Now correct me if I am wrong Bexil but dont some of the airlines own part of NATS? I doubt they would be interested in paying higher charges to pay NEW controllers a pension they are unable to pay their own staff.
I have no doubt this matter will cause feathers to be ruffled for many months and years to come, all I am saying is save yourselves the stress. Its a fact of life that final salary pension schemes are unsustainable.
However if NATS have found a way of doing it will they please let the rest of the world know how it is done and meybe they could sell their secrets and everyone could retire at 40!
Happy stomping Bexil.
Unless of course it intends to dramatically raise its charges to the airlines and airports.
Now correct me if I am wrong Bexil but dont some of the airlines own part of NATS? I doubt they would be interested in paying higher charges to pay NEW controllers a pension they are unable to pay their own staff.
I have no doubt this matter will cause feathers to be ruffled for many months and years to come, all I am saying is save yourselves the stress. Its a fact of life that final salary pension schemes are unsustainable.
However if NATS have found a way of doing it will they please let the rest of the world know how it is done and meybe they could sell their secrets and everyone could retire at 40!
Happy stomping Bexil.
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Although it isn't directly a Banding argument,this could be the first REAL issue that would rustle the Big Boys Feathers.Unless you have been at a small unit,at the receiving end of some of Nats/Prospect's ''Deals'',then you have never been effected.This could be the first time that Band4/5 units get shafted.
Don't dismiss people who mention Banding.They have been effected by Nats/Prospect having got away with it,and no-one else giving a stuff.Well it could be coming to us all.What I'm saying is that they may find a way to test the water with new entrants and NSL staff.If they get away with it then watch out.Because they have succeeded over the years carving away at the smaller units with Prospect's agreement,only gives Nats more scope to have a go at everyone else.It's just at this Band 2 unit,we're kinda used to it now
Don't dismiss people who mention Banding.They have been effected by Nats/Prospect having got away with it,and no-one else giving a stuff.Well it could be coming to us all.What I'm saying is that they may find a way to test the water with new entrants and NSL staff.If they get away with it then watch out.Because they have succeeded over the years carving away at the smaller units with Prospect's agreement,only gives Nats more scope to have a go at everyone else.It's just at this Band 2 unit,we're kinda used to it now
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Throw A Dyce - They cannot do anything to the pension that would only affect the NSL Staff. They can't. The statement put out was with regard to how the company will be meeting some of the costs assocoated with the pension.
I agree that the Union has let down a lot of the Units when it comes to Banding - Band 4 Units were shafted too - Thames Radar getting paid more than Scottish TMA / Stafa controllers??? But we cannot let banding cloud what is and is going to be the most important issue (imho) in the near future.
The statement put out by management is not very clear as to its meaning with regard to NSL/NERL
Look Here
We need some clarification in plain english - from both Union and Management
I agree that the Union has let down a lot of the Units when it comes to Banding - Band 4 Units were shafted too - Thames Radar getting paid more than Scottish TMA / Stafa controllers??? But we cannot let banding cloud what is and is going to be the most important issue (imho) in the near future.
The statement put out by management is not very clear as to its meaning with regard to NSL/NERL
Look Here
We need some clarification in plain english - from both Union and Management
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SIAM,
I'm still waiting for your full explanation as to why CAAPS can't continue which you still fail to provide.
Just beacuse other schemes may have problems, there's no reason to assume CAAPS faces the same issues. It doesn't.
There is no doubt that some schemes are overextended. CAAPS isn't one of them. Other's problems are wrongly being cited by NATS Management (and yourself) as to why CAAPS can't continue as is.
A HUGE assumption, with no basis in fact
Is it? Just because some schemes are in trouble, it doesn't mean they ALL are does it?
It's just this sort of claptrap that management of NATS (and other employers) is using to fiddle with perfectly good pension schemes for their companies benefit. Not the employees.
Your arguments don't add up, fortunately our Pension Scheme does and I, and my colleagues will defend it.
Rgds BEX
I'm still waiting for your full explanation as to why CAAPS can't continue which you still fail to provide.
Just beacuse other schemes may have problems, there's no reason to assume CAAPS faces the same issues. It doesn't.
There is no doubt that some schemes are overextended. CAAPS isn't one of them. Other's problems are wrongly being cited by NATS Management (and yourself) as to why CAAPS can't continue as is.
at some point in the future NATS will have problems financing its pension scheme.
Its a fact of life that final salary pension schemes are unsustainable.
It's just this sort of claptrap that management of NATS (and other employers) is using to fiddle with perfectly good pension schemes for their companies benefit. Not the employees.
Your arguments don't add up, fortunately our Pension Scheme does and I, and my colleagues will defend it.
Rgds BEX
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unsutainable or not I wonder what reaction would be received a days industrial action was announced at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester at the same time - or staggered so that flights that were departing Mancheter for the South got delayed in the morning by Action at London and then couldnt leave due to action in Manchester in the afternoon.
I am pretty sure that the disruption to business and expenses incurred by airlines would get a few people twitchy.
I am pretty sure that the disruption to business and expenses incurred by airlines would get a few people twitchy.
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TATC,
What a wonderful idea!. I would back such an action 100%, however will we be given leadership by our unions for such an act?, or are we still "keeping our powder dry"
What a wonderful idea!. I would back such an action 100%, however will we be given leadership by our unions for such an act?, or are we still "keeping our powder dry"
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Originally Posted by TATC
unsutainable or not I wonder what reaction would be received a days industrial action was announced at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester at the same time
Why just these 3?
People will fly from SS/GW/LC. It has to be a unified action - airfields and centres then nothing moves apart from what would be forced onto the mil.
Remember if the guys at Oceanic don't come to work not a lot will be moving across the pond either.
That would make them take notice.
I wouldn't strike over pay - Nurses and teachers and the like have a much better case for striking than £75K a year ATCOs that have about half the year off. But as far as the pension goes......
Our powder has been dry for too long.
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There's a definate lack of consistency in the companies actions. As part of the last pay deal they offered BUPA and reduced pension contributions for managers. So who is meeting these costs? Who wanted BUPA? If our pension scheme is so costly why reduce contributions for those most able to afford them? Something doesn't smell right and they can't get away with it.
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If and when the time comes, I hope that the Union, and it's memebers. has the backbone to strike.
Siam
We as a group of employees are in a position not held by that many people - firemen strike, the armed forces take over etc etc.
If we strike, no one can take over and run the show. That is not an empty egotistical statement, it is fact. ATCOs cannot be drafted in from somewhere else to do the job - each unit is too individual in its operations to enable that to happen.
We do not think we are Gods - that is a crass staement from someone who obviously has no idea of what our job entails (once again that brings me to the question - are you management)
TATC
Staggered striking by units is a halfway house and is a sign of weakness. If we were to strike we should do it to cause the maximum disruption, not just as a show of discontent.
I hope it does not come to it because we have a very good record as ATCOs in the UK, however that is another string to our bow.... we do not strike at the drop of a hat unlike some of our higher paid, better quality of life European colleagues, therefore if and when we do, people will know that it is serious.
If we do strike, we will need a good union behind us that puts out very good press releases to keep the public informed.
Stupendous Man
You are entirely correct about nurses versus (some) ATCOs 75k wages (hell my cousin is a nurse at a huge newly built hospital - the hospital trust makes her and her colleagues pay to park at work, around a tenner a day!)
However, although not the issue at stake; we are not overpaid by any means and certainly not just because other professions are underpaid.
One workforce, one pension
Siam
We as a group of employees are in a position not held by that many people - firemen strike, the armed forces take over etc etc.
If we strike, no one can take over and run the show. That is not an empty egotistical statement, it is fact. ATCOs cannot be drafted in from somewhere else to do the job - each unit is too individual in its operations to enable that to happen.
We do not think we are Gods - that is a crass staement from someone who obviously has no idea of what our job entails (once again that brings me to the question - are you management)
TATC
Staggered striking by units is a halfway house and is a sign of weakness. If we were to strike we should do it to cause the maximum disruption, not just as a show of discontent.
I hope it does not come to it because we have a very good record as ATCOs in the UK, however that is another string to our bow.... we do not strike at the drop of a hat unlike some of our higher paid, better quality of life European colleagues, therefore if and when we do, people will know that it is serious.
If we do strike, we will need a good union behind us that puts out very good press releases to keep the public informed.
Stupendous Man
You are entirely correct about nurses versus (some) ATCOs 75k wages (hell my cousin is a nurse at a huge newly built hospital - the hospital trust makes her and her colleagues pay to park at work, around a tenner a day!)
However, although not the issue at stake; we are not overpaid by any means and certainly not just because other professions are underpaid.
One workforce, one pension
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I dont think our salaries and terms and conditions will come in to it in the minds of the public. I think that we will get their support. I think that many people today feel powerless in the face of autocratic governments, self-serving MPs, Multi-national companies. How many times do we see or read about managers or people in the city walking off with multi million pound pay-offs having destroyed companies and ruined and stolen pension funds and there is nothing that ordinary people like you or I can do about it. Legal it may be, moral it is not. If we stood up to NATS and threatened to strike in support of "our pension fund" I think most people would support us having seen how other people have been treated. I do not think that it would come to strike action, the threat would be enough for NATS to back down.