Best advice when your airways ATCer gets really cross with you?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tracy Island
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best advice when your airways ATCer gets really cross with you?
Last week I heard a latcc control giving a crew a very hard time with non standard RT and an angry voice,made me laugh at first but probably upset the crew who were getting the lashing.
If the crew then went on to make a mistake would ATC not be partly guilty?
As a pilot I think ATCers provide an excelent service under a lot of stress and forgive a hell of a lot of mistakes BUT i would not give my FOs an enroute bolloc*ing because I want them thinking about their job not the past.
System works both ways and I guess when you get an angry pilot it could put you off too.
So if you are getting an ATC lashing what should you do? ask for a different controler,second opinion or just take it and hope you get a freq change sooner rather than later.
If the crew then went on to make a mistake would ATC not be partly guilty?
As a pilot I think ATCers provide an excelent service under a lot of stress and forgive a hell of a lot of mistakes BUT i would not give my FOs an enroute bolloc*ing because I want them thinking about their job not the past.
System works both ways and I guess when you get an angry pilot it could put you off too.
So if you are getting an ATC lashing what should you do? ask for a different controler,second opinion or just take it and hope you get a freq change sooner rather than later.
or just take it and hope you get a freq change sooner rather than later.
That's probably your best bet. What else can you do?
Whenever I'm tempted to get angry with a crew I think how I'd feel if I was a passenger on that aircraft.
If a crew have done something really bad, surely a phone call or even reporting action would be a better bet than losing the rag.
That's probably your best bet. What else can you do?
Whenever I'm tempted to get angry with a crew I think how I'd feel if I was a passenger on that aircraft.
If a crew have done something really bad, surely a phone call or even reporting action would be a better bet than losing the rag.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 75
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally unprofessional, however you don't know the entire background. If it was something like instructed to turn left and the turn was made to the right I think I would probably have been more than a bit miffed.
As Del Prado said, a phone call, of a report after landing would be better.Best thing though would be a visit to the unit involved - also re-instatement of the fam. flight programme for controllers.
BTW, if you are going to make a report it would be nice to advise this on the frequency as you are QSYed.
As Del Prado said, a phone call, of a report after landing would be better.Best thing though would be a visit to the unit involved - also re-instatement of the fam. flight programme for controllers.
BTW, if you are going to make a report it would be nice to advise this on the frequency as you are QSYed.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Teddington
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never thought it a good idea to give out tellings-off on the frequency, if it's that important a thing someone has done wrong there's always the telephone afterwards when everyone's had a chance to calm down. To be fair though there are two sides to this, i've experienced many needless impatient and sarcastic comments from crews and it can really make you boil inside sometimes when all you're doing is your best.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Near EGKK
Age: 51
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I learnt one important lesson whilst gettimg my PPL by having a bit of a disagreement with Sydney departures on-air; between the controller and I, a clearance seemed ambiguous and I thought one thing and they thought another.
After trying to debate my point a couple of times, both sides digging into their position, I thought better of it (I just imagined all those QF pilots sniggering at the verbal ping-pong going on) and decided that politeness was the order of the day.
What did I learn? Firstly, even if you are slightly unsure about what ATC want, ask them; and secondly both halves of the pilot / ATC equation need to remember that we both want an easy and safe flight without any on-frequency verbal lashings. It didn't help them or me to continue the conversation as it was - and when I left their control I thanked the (same) controller profusely for their help, and they were equally polite back. Maybe there is a lesson in here for some of the more hot-headed ATPLs out there...
I have, however, so far avoided upsetting LATCC and thoroughly intend to keep it that way
Paul.
After trying to debate my point a couple of times, both sides digging into their position, I thought better of it (I just imagined all those QF pilots sniggering at the verbal ping-pong going on) and decided that politeness was the order of the day.
What did I learn? Firstly, even if you are slightly unsure about what ATC want, ask them; and secondly both halves of the pilot / ATC equation need to remember that we both want an easy and safe flight without any on-frequency verbal lashings. It didn't help them or me to continue the conversation as it was - and when I left their control I thanked the (same) controller profusely for their help, and they were equally polite back. Maybe there is a lesson in here for some of the more hot-headed ATPLs out there...
I have, however, so far avoided upsetting LATCC and thoroughly intend to keep it that way
Paul.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: wherever I lay my headset
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, of course emotions shouldn't be vented ober the airwaves... and a call after the event is, of course, the best action... but ATC is a stressful business, and its oh so difficult to remain calm when your spacing is shot to pieces and you have to completely reorganise your recovery pattern...
Avoid it when you can, but heck we're only human (and I'm sure the other pilot's love to hear someone else getting a blast... and it explains why they're about to get dicked around)
Avoid it when you can, but heck we're only human (and I'm sure the other pilot's love to hear someone else getting a blast... and it explains why they're about to get dicked around)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In an perfect world we would all be cordial to each other and everyone would do everything correctly. However, we are far from a perfect world in aviation, and there are times when some folks just have had enough with stupid pilot tricks and do erupt on the freq. Should they? No, but it does happen, and something for the flight crews to think about, would they rather get a verbal lashing that lasts a couple of seconds or instead just have us write the crew up for doing something wrong and then getting to sit on the ground for a few months when the lic. is revoked? You guys really don't want us to write up everytime pilots mess up...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
And when its just a pissy controller with no violation involved? That's about 99.9% of the time when there's a problem.
"getting to sit on the ground for a few months when the lic. is revoked?"
Even if you wanted, your gonna have to work awfully hard to get my certs.
Unless I do it intentionally(little chance of that), I'll get by. Thanks for the the threat however.
I'd say I would have an easier time getting you time off w/o pay than the other way around.
"getting to sit on the ground for a few months when the lic. is revoked?"
Even if you wanted, your gonna have to work awfully hard to get my certs.
Unless I do it intentionally(little chance of that), I'll get by. Thanks for the the threat however.
I'd say I would have an easier time getting you time off w/o pay than the other way around.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a point of pedantry, there has been no such place as LATCC since early in 2002 when the New Centre at Swanwick opened. What was LATCC based at West Drayton became two geographically separate centres. LATCC stood for London Area and Terminal Control Centre, the Area element moved to Swanwick and became the LACC (London Area Control Centre) and what was left at West Drayton was LTCC (London Terminal Control Centre). Late next year LTCC will move into part of the building at Swanwick and eventually West Drayton will close. In 2012 (ish) TC will merge with the AC operation to form one big happy controlling family again, like what it was before they split years ago :-)
BD
BD
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swanwick, England
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2012?
I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.
The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".
I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.
The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Centre of old Europe
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good advice given above, don't argue on the frequency, sort it out on telephone later.
Reminds me to an incident many moons ago, when PanAmerican was still flying and I was an active controller. Area control, the sector south of the airport. The Clipper took off, off-peak TMA did not need him and I got him directly on my freq after take off in northerly direction. I saw nothing turning south for quick identification on the radar screen, so squawk ident. Still nothing where the aircraft was expected to be, only a thick ident of an aircraft heading north. Could not be my one, or could it? Asking to squawk ident once more, the pilot replied : ehr, control, I'm sorry, afraid we made a mistake of 180°, turning south to the SID now if you approve, hope we didn't put you in too many difficulties.
Quick coordination with APP as well as north and east sectors, as the aircraft was rapidly climbing. Luckily we could all take it with a relieved smile, in particular thanks to the attitude of the pilots admitting their mistake before I as the controller would be tempted to rap them over their knuckles on the freq. Even a tel con after the flight wasn't necessary anymore let alone an official report.
I realise it wouldn't work in all circumstances, certainly not when it is about misinterpretations, but this incident may show how to prevent/stop a nasty exchange of words on overloaded frequencies.
Reminds me to an incident many moons ago, when PanAmerican was still flying and I was an active controller. Area control, the sector south of the airport. The Clipper took off, off-peak TMA did not need him and I got him directly on my freq after take off in northerly direction. I saw nothing turning south for quick identification on the radar screen, so squawk ident. Still nothing where the aircraft was expected to be, only a thick ident of an aircraft heading north. Could not be my one, or could it? Asking to squawk ident once more, the pilot replied : ehr, control, I'm sorry, afraid we made a mistake of 180°, turning south to the SID now if you approve, hope we didn't put you in too many difficulties.
Quick coordination with APP as well as north and east sectors, as the aircraft was rapidly climbing. Luckily we could all take it with a relieved smile, in particular thanks to the attitude of the pilots admitting their mistake before I as the controller would be tempted to rap them over their knuckles on the freq. Even a tel con after the flight wasn't necessary anymore let alone an official report.
I realise it wouldn't work in all circumstances, certainly not when it is about misinterpretations, but this incident may show how to prevent/stop a nasty exchange of words on overloaded frequencies.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few years back a particularly pissy CPA pilot called me ''A Jerk'' on the Ground freq in HongKong.This particular person couldn't understand that he was no4 for pushback in a very crowded corner.In fact if he pushed, he would have hit others.
The good thing was after he called me ''A Jerk'' another CPA pilot said''No you're the Jerk''.But what the guy didn't realise that once I got him pushed,a bit earlier with some nifty pushbacks,he then sat on the taxiway while everyone else sailed past him.Ended up no 14 at the hold.Was I bothered NO
You couldn't phone there and discuss it as Management would never support the Controller.Way it was
The good thing was after he called me ''A Jerk'' another CPA pilot said''No you're the Jerk''.But what the guy didn't realise that once I got him pushed,a bit earlier with some nifty pushbacks,he then sat on the taxiway while everyone else sailed past him.Ended up no 14 at the hold.Was I bothered NO
You couldn't phone there and discuss it as Management would never support the Controller.Way it was
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MancBoy
2012?
I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.
The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".
I'd heard it was a soon as you guys get down here that we'll be working together.
The best thing would be if ,for example, Daventry sector were actually sat next to TC Midlands, etc. This would improve presentation between sectors and help to keep relations "rosy".
BD
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kak Klaxon
Make a note of time and frequency [or channel]
Do not respond in same manner
After landing attempt to contact relevant unit directly or via dest ATC unit and ask for tape to be impounded for investigation.
.....and just in case the request gets lost....brief details on voyage report.
No excuse for that!
By the way...what's all this stress stuff? This job's only as hard a you make it
Make a note of time and frequency [or channel]
Do not respond in same manner
After landing attempt to contact relevant unit directly or via dest ATC unit and ask for tape to be impounded for investigation.
.....and just in case the request gets lost....brief details on voyage report.
No excuse for that!
By the way...what's all this stress stuff? This job's only as hard a you make it
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a great audio clip "Ding Dong" out there somewhere; it's a classic tale from the states; the ATC does take it a little far...
Anyone got an MP3 of it to post? We used to play it to all the newbies as a little lesson in how not to enhance ATC-Pilot relations.
Sometimes a little thought before engaging mouth helps; for example I tell the next sector to slow up and aircraft for my sequence (usually only done when delay is 7+ minutes); the pilot calls me asking for direct tracking and high speed descent because the they are running late... I also like, telling the next sector minimum speed on XXX123 the aircraft calls and I say turn left, the pilot says, we could slow up some more... What exactly does the word "minimum" mean?
However, that said, I always try to stay professional over the Air Ground even if I think something really stupid just happened. I will however, let some of the ATCs around me what just happened... Usually some choice words flow when circumstances are right; more cursing other ATCs when they give dodgy coordination (usually including a dodgy traffic resolution) than the pilot to controller stuff.
Best advice if you ever encounter someone grumpy or tearse is ignore it act professional and get on with it. Asking for antoher ATC is likely to enhace the tension not resolve it. Most units will not have another ATC to get in, if they did it could still well be ten minutes before the spare body is found and is able to take over.
Anyone got an MP3 of it to post? We used to play it to all the newbies as a little lesson in how not to enhance ATC-Pilot relations.
Sometimes a little thought before engaging mouth helps; for example I tell the next sector to slow up and aircraft for my sequence (usually only done when delay is 7+ minutes); the pilot calls me asking for direct tracking and high speed descent because the they are running late... I also like, telling the next sector minimum speed on XXX123 the aircraft calls and I say turn left, the pilot says, we could slow up some more... What exactly does the word "minimum" mean?
However, that said, I always try to stay professional over the Air Ground even if I think something really stupid just happened. I will however, let some of the ATCs around me what just happened... Usually some choice words flow when circumstances are right; more cursing other ATCs when they give dodgy coordination (usually including a dodgy traffic resolution) than the pilot to controller stuff.
Best advice if you ever encounter someone grumpy or tearse is ignore it act professional and get on with it. Asking for antoher ATC is likely to enhace the tension not resolve it. Most units will not have another ATC to get in, if they did it could still well be ten minutes before the spare body is found and is able to take over.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tolerance is the name of the game
Hi guys..the magic word in ATC is either I'm sorry or apologies. 31 years in ATC and these two words has done wonders for me. Face it, we all make mistakes. If we didn't then we all would be walking on water. Whenever I got angry, my assistant would take over n will advise me to calm down (this is a silent agreement I make with my assistant when I am behind the mike). Likewise I'll do the same to him or her if there is some argument between two adjacent centres.We have a lot of young controllers who don't understand the workload in a cockpit.I don't want a crew to leave my freq with a troubled mind.I hope it helps in some way.thanks.greetings from Lumpur Control Malaysia.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Under my parachute
Age: 44
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi guys..
I have a frozen ATPL but for the time being i m an ATCO (area radar,and proud of being it 
)...
I live abroad,and all the times that i fly home i try to get in the cockpit,and most of the time i succeed (thanks to my ATCO id
)
In my UAC we used to have lots of fam programs with airlines,but after 9/11 almost everything had been cancelled....
we r slowly restarting it (i`ve personally been in the 737 sim at VEX in brussels) but still it happens really rarely and only for very few people;
i ve been impressed by the job that those guys are doing (even having a rough idea of what to expect)and also simply in a normal flight we have the chance to see what goes on between CPt and FO...
same story the other way around,we ve had pilots from KLM visiting our center,and we ve kept them next to our ATCO on the position for a couple of hours to let them see what the real job is from our side,and later,they ve gone in the sim to try and work as ATCO themselves.....
boy that was fun!!!
i`d love to have more fam flights,as well as more fam visits of pilots to our center,we all have to get along in the sky ,but still it happens that someone gets pissed off....
at least we all have an idea of what the other person`s job looks like,i think we ll all think twice before starting complaining on the freq....
cheers guys.
)...I live abroad,and all the times that i fly home i try to get in the cockpit,and most of the time i succeed (thanks to my ATCO id
)In my UAC we used to have lots of fam programs with airlines,but after 9/11 almost everything had been cancelled....
we r slowly restarting it (i`ve personally been in the 737 sim at VEX in brussels) but still it happens really rarely and only for very few people;
i ve been impressed by the job that those guys are doing (even having a rough idea of what to expect)and also simply in a normal flight we have the chance to see what goes on between CPt and FO...
same story the other way around,we ve had pilots from KLM visiting our center,and we ve kept them next to our ATCO on the position for a couple of hours to let them see what the real job is from our side,and later,they ve gone in the sim to try and work as ATCO themselves.....
boy that was fun!!!
i`d love to have more fam flights,as well as more fam visits of pilots to our center,we all have to get along in the sky ,but still it happens that someone gets pissed off....
at least we all have an idea of what the other person`s job looks like,i think we ll all think twice before starting complaining on the freq....
cheers guys.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: wherever I lay my headset
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By the way...what's all this stress stuff? This job's only as hard a you make it
When I have control of human resources, can rely on the equipment working as advertised, on pilots sticking to their flight plans, the weather being as forecast etc, etc, etc... then I'll accept "the job is only as hard as you make it"