NATS ATCO Pay Deal Accepted
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Originally Posted by Captain Mayday
Running out of ATCOs .. ?
Running out of oil ... ?
Anyone thought ahead 20 - 25 years .. ? How much oil will be left then ..?
How many commercial jets are actually going to be scooting about ?
How many ATCOs are going to be needed ?
Who's going to pay for the pensions of the 3000 retired ATCOs by then ?
Perhaps in that light - reducing pay for trainee ATCOs - closing ATC College - handing airspace to Ireland - attacking pension etc..etc.. won't seem such surprising actions when they happen ... ?
Running out of oil ... ?
Anyone thought ahead 20 - 25 years .. ? How much oil will be left then ..?
How many commercial jets are actually going to be scooting about ?
How many ATCOs are going to be needed ?
Who's going to pay for the pensions of the 3000 retired ATCOs by then ?
Perhaps in that light - reducing pay for trainee ATCOs - closing ATC College - handing airspace to Ireland - attacking pension etc..etc.. won't seem such surprising actions when they happen ... ?
So, if anything, there'll be even more work for ATCOs trying to stop half-asleep commuters bumping into each other - after all, they seem to give a driving licence to anyone, why should it be any different for PAVs?
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Aerobatfink,
I wasn’t trying to be patronising whatsoever…it’s really not in my nature and I’m sorry you think that. My interview day consisted of 5 of us, 2 of which had really no interest in ATC, simply heard the advert on the radio and thought they’d apply for the job…this had frustrated me as I couldn’t but help think of the many, many people I’d met at the initial selection day and a career as an ATCO was all they thought about. I can understand that not everyone who wants to be one can get through obviously as you need to have the characteristics to be able to do the job well than just do the job.
I have thoroughly digested what you had to say and it saddened me somewhat that you so brazenly put your point across as if you were the only one who is going to be faced with stresses and strains. You do not know what other peoples state of affairs is simply because they are not posting it on a public forum. You could so easily have made it through to college on £20K a year and not passed an element of the training and then been back to square one financially anyway. Not that I’m saying that would happen but nothing in this life is guaranteed……especially money and I’ve come to accept that. For my situation it’s just completely typical of how my life goes that when I get through to the last stage the pay gets reduced dramatically but C’est la vie!
I get the feeling from the way you write that it’s not possibly a career as an ATC is exactly what you want and that you’ve been forced to settle for that and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I for one does not want to end up in college with some-one who is somewhat bitter that they couldn’t become a pilot because of one reason or another.
Certainly think twice about, I understand how much of a struggle it will be but don’t nitpick about something that might not necessarily happen. It’s a bit like counting your eggs before they’ve hatched.
I sincerely hope (should you get accepted) that you decide to give it a go, that it’s a success for you and you can start to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Also I hope you enjoy it as I reckon there’s bound to be nothing like the feeling of looking forward to going into work everyday…and get paid for it!!!
Good luck
Betty
I wasn’t trying to be patronising whatsoever…it’s really not in my nature and I’m sorry you think that. My interview day consisted of 5 of us, 2 of which had really no interest in ATC, simply heard the advert on the radio and thought they’d apply for the job…this had frustrated me as I couldn’t but help think of the many, many people I’d met at the initial selection day and a career as an ATCO was all they thought about. I can understand that not everyone who wants to be one can get through obviously as you need to have the characteristics to be able to do the job well than just do the job.
I have thoroughly digested what you had to say and it saddened me somewhat that you so brazenly put your point across as if you were the only one who is going to be faced with stresses and strains. You do not know what other peoples state of affairs is simply because they are not posting it on a public forum. You could so easily have made it through to college on £20K a year and not passed an element of the training and then been back to square one financially anyway. Not that I’m saying that would happen but nothing in this life is guaranteed……especially money and I’ve come to accept that. For my situation it’s just completely typical of how my life goes that when I get through to the last stage the pay gets reduced dramatically but C’est la vie!
I get the feeling from the way you write that it’s not possibly a career as an ATC is exactly what you want and that you’ve been forced to settle for that and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I for one does not want to end up in college with some-one who is somewhat bitter that they couldn’t become a pilot because of one reason or another.
Certainly think twice about, I understand how much of a struggle it will be but don’t nitpick about something that might not necessarily happen. It’s a bit like counting your eggs before they’ve hatched.
I sincerely hope (should you get accepted) that you decide to give it a go, that it’s a success for you and you can start to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Also I hope you enjoy it as I reckon there’s bound to be nothing like the feeling of looking forward to going into work everyday…and get paid for it!!!
Good luck
Betty
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Bettyboop
I'm sorry, I'm sure you are a wonderful person with perfectly good intentions but, for someone who hasn't even started at the College, you come across as really, really patronising.
Or is it just me being sensitive!
I'm sorry, I'm sure you are a wonderful person with perfectly good intentions but, for someone who hasn't even started at the College, you come across as really, really patronising.
Or is it just me being sensitive!
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Originally Posted by Bettyboop
I wasn’t trying to be patronising whatsoever…it’s really not in my nature and I’m sorry you think that. My interview day consisted of 5 of us, 2 of which had really no interest in ATC, simply heard the advert on the radio and thought they’d apply for the job…this had frustrated me as I couldn’t but help think of the many, many people I’d met at the initial selection day and a career as an ATCO was all they thought about. I can understand that not everyone who wants to be one can get through obviously as you need to have the characteristics to be able to do the job well than just do the job.
Originally Posted by Bettyboop
I have thoroughly digested what you had to say and it saddened me somewhat that you so brazenly put your point across as if you were the only one who is going to be faced with stresses and strains. You do not know what other peoples state of affairs is simply because they are not posting it on a public forum. You could so easily have made it through to college on £20K a year and not passed an element of the training and then been back to square one financially anyway. Not that I’m saying that would happen but nothing in this life is guaranteed……especially money and I’ve come to accept that. For my situation it’s just completely typical of how my life goes that when I get through to the last stage the pay gets reduced dramatically but C’est la vie!
Originally Posted by Bettyboop
I get the feeling from the way you write that it’s not possibly a career as an ATC is exactly what you want and that you’ve been forced to settle for that and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I for one does not want to end up in college with some-one who is somewhat bitter that they couldn’t become a pilot because of one reason or another.
That's not to say that if I was offered a life of luxury that involved flying floatplanes around my own private archipelago in the south pacific I wouldn't take them up on it, but I reckon there'd be a fair few validated ATCOs who do the same. Just guessing of course, I might be completely wrong...
Originally Posted by Bettyboop
Certainly think twice about, I understand how much of a struggle it will be but don’t nitpick about something that might not necessarily happen. It’s a bit like counting your eggs before they’ve hatched.
Anyway, let's draw a line under what are, after all, fairly minor differences of opinion - I'm sure the others on this forum aren't interested in reading our 'to'ing and 'fro'ing. Plus, you never know, we might end up working together.
Originally Posted by Bettyboop
Also I hope you enjoy it as I reckon there’s bound to be nothing like the feeling of looking forward to going into work everyday…and get paid for it!!!
The best of luck, Betty, and you never know, we might bump into each other somewhere along the line at a Manchester selection day (if you're over from Belfast), or even (fingers crossed) in Bournemouth.
@ Number2 - ok, rumbled
Last edited by AeroBatfink; 17th Feb 2006 at 00:37.
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Originally Posted by AeroBatfink
I couldn't agree more - I wouldn't want to end up at the college with an embittered failed pilot either... or for that matter with someone who is only in it for the money, or someone who believes it's their god-given, transmissible right to work in ATC.
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Originally Posted by Bandbox4Training
Don't get your hopes up!
I'm not doing... but like I said, I still think it's important to work effectively with my team irrespective of issues that don't affect how they do the job.
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All this holier than though business about people doing the job only for the money is driving me nuts.
I enjoy sitting there in front of the radar screen controlling aircraft, but guess what i only work because I need money to live. Given the opportunity and a Lottery win I can assure everyone I will be off.
As for embittered failures getting in, you find those in every occupation and ATC is no different.
Because some choose to do ATC because it pays well and looks after it's staff in the main is not that bad a reason to do any profession, not everyone needs to have a vocation in life
I enjoy sitting there in front of the radar screen controlling aircraft, but guess what i only work because I need money to live. Given the opportunity and a Lottery win I can assure everyone I will be off.
As for embittered failures getting in, you find those in every occupation and ATC is no different.
Because some choose to do ATC because it pays well and looks after it's staff in the main is not that bad a reason to do any profession, not everyone needs to have a vocation in life
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Aldi were advertising in yesterdays Times...
a precis.
Area Store Management Trainees required... A levels or higher.
Salary whilst training - £38k plus Audi A4, rising over the next 3 years to
£54.5k plus Audi A4.
I have been very reliably informed that the union did well to hang onto £10k for our students - management allegedly wanted it to be no pay whatsoever - I am not sure whether they meant whilst at college or during the whole of the training process.
I would have thought the former as people can choose to go to Bournemouth and live and study - thats black and white, but then they could end up anywhere, so the company would probably have to start paying them then.
Still - retail management anyone?? - It's a lot of pay to protect those metal tubes full of beans as opposed to metal tubes full of beings
a precis.
Area Store Management Trainees required... A levels or higher.
Salary whilst training - £38k plus Audi A4, rising over the next 3 years to
£54.5k plus Audi A4.
I have been very reliably informed that the union did well to hang onto £10k for our students - management allegedly wanted it to be no pay whatsoever - I am not sure whether they meant whilst at college or during the whole of the training process.
I would have thought the former as people can choose to go to Bournemouth and live and study - thats black and white, but then they could end up anywhere, so the company would probably have to start paying them then.
Still - retail management anyone?? - It's a lot of pay to protect those metal tubes full of beans as opposed to metal tubes full of beings
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@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.
@ anotherthing: the ATCO mentioned NATS had pushed for £5k, but I hadn't realised they were trying to stop paying altogether! Obviously nobody told the marketing dept who'd written 'get paid while training' very prominently on the advert I saw...
@ anotherthing: the ATCO mentioned NATS had pushed for £5k, but I hadn't realised they were trying to stop paying altogether!
Obviously nobody told the marketing dept who'd written 'get paid while training' very prominently on the advert I saw...
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[QUOTE=AeroBatfink]@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
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Originally Posted by flower
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
Originally Posted by AeroBatfink
I couldn't agree more - I wouldn't want to end up at the college with an embittered failed pilot either... or for that matter with someone who is only in it for the money, or someone who believes it's their god-given, transmissible right to work in ATC.
Originally Posted by AeroBatfink
But then, we could end up working alongside any one of the people we're at the college with, so I'm of the opinion that it would probably be a good idea to make the effort to get on with everyone.
Originally Posted by flower
It is driving me nuts... to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job...
Originally Posted by flower
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
Anyway, we seem to be drifting this topic away from the subject of the pay deal - my apologies for going OT...
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There's been a lot of discussion about the new pay levels at the College, and also for Trainee's when they arrive at their unit.
However, I haven't seen any discussion about the fact that a trainee will not receive UHP (sorry, ASAP as it's called now) until they validate.
Surely that seems to be a bit cruel - to have to work shifts and not be paid for it?
On another tangent, what about the hourly rates of pay for OJTI's training? Do people think that this is open to abuse? Any thoughts about what procedures should be brought in to make it fair to everyone?
Just my 2p for now.
However, I haven't seen any discussion about the fact that a trainee will not receive UHP (sorry, ASAP as it's called now) until they validate.
Surely that seems to be a bit cruel - to have to work shifts and not be paid for it?
On another tangent, what about the hourly rates of pay for OJTI's training? Do people think that this is open to abuse? Any thoughts about what procedures should be brought in to make it fair to everyone?
Just my 2p for now.
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[QUOTE=flower]
Totally agree flower. Well said.
Aerobatfink, I think both you and Flower are in agreement on this one and are arguing the same point here!!!
FB
Originally Posted by AeroBatfink
@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
Aerobatfink, I think both you and Flower are in agreement on this one and are arguing the same point here!!!
FB
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I cannot think of any other industry that pays its students you should think yourselves lucky you will be getting 10k. You are in effect starting an apprenticeship in ATC I think you will find that no other apprentices in any other trades will get paid so much when starting out with no skills what so ever.
Aerobatfink why you think you should get more money just because you have a family is beyond me. You make your own choices in life if they interfere with your present plans - TOUGH LUCK.
Andanotherthing and aldi manager will work at the very least 12 hours a day 6 days a week believe me they earn their money
Aerobatfink why you think you should get more money just because you have a family is beyond me. You make your own choices in life if they interfere with your present plans - TOUGH LUCK.
Andanotherthing and aldi manager will work at the very least 12 hours a day 6 days a week believe me they earn their money
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Hi,
New to this sort of dispute on the web, but not in the workplace. I watched a very nice Union man with an axe chop numerous bands from under me as I climbed the scale. I am at the top and have no problem with the fact that people are reaching that level quicker than I did. They have the ability to get the same house,car,etc as me but earlier. Am I bitter? No, that is life. Be happy with what you have got. If you want to do the job, go for it. I do not know any other employer who rewards you for simply doing the job with a £1500-3000 pay rise every year, regardless of how the company is doing, until you reach around £80,000. Pilots have to have at least a PPL before they are taken on. Who pays for that? When I started, we had people who were choosing between the City and being an ATCO. The instant decisions they had to make were broadly similar, but the pay in the City was massively better, with a chance of being chopped if you lost the firm's money. We opt for those type of people who are not prepared to lose at all. The pay may have gone down for trainees, but the rewards later on are guaranteed, if you keep your medical. I love my job, and someone is nice enough to pay me an awful lot of money for doing it. And yes, I am worth it, but I'd do it for a lot less if pushed. Try telling a teacher how much you get as an ATCO and justify that figure. Basically, if you want to do it, go for it, beg and borrow, as you will be able to pay it back later.
PP
New to this sort of dispute on the web, but not in the workplace. I watched a very nice Union man with an axe chop numerous bands from under me as I climbed the scale. I am at the top and have no problem with the fact that people are reaching that level quicker than I did. They have the ability to get the same house,car,etc as me but earlier. Am I bitter? No, that is life. Be happy with what you have got. If you want to do the job, go for it. I do not know any other employer who rewards you for simply doing the job with a £1500-3000 pay rise every year, regardless of how the company is doing, until you reach around £80,000. Pilots have to have at least a PPL before they are taken on. Who pays for that? When I started, we had people who were choosing between the City and being an ATCO. The instant decisions they had to make were broadly similar, but the pay in the City was massively better, with a chance of being chopped if you lost the firm's money. We opt for those type of people who are not prepared to lose at all. The pay may have gone down for trainees, but the rewards later on are guaranteed, if you keep your medical. I love my job, and someone is nice enough to pay me an awful lot of money for doing it. And yes, I am worth it, but I'd do it for a lot less if pushed. Try telling a teacher how much you get as an ATCO and justify that figure. Basically, if you want to do it, go for it, beg and borrow, as you will be able to pay it back later.
PP
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Originally Posted by siam
Aerobatfink why you think you should get more money just because you have a family is beyond me. You make your own choices in life if they interfere with your present plans - TOUGH LUCK.
And NATS isn't really paying students is it? How would qualifying as an ATCO be a transferrable skill useful to any other industry outside ATC. Are there even many examples of trainees passing Bournemouth then going straight to work for a rival company? It's vocational training, and there are plenty of examples of that around. Granted, they're probably not better paid though...
Originally Posted by Pickled Pheasant
Basically, if you want to do it, go for it, beg and borrow, as you will be able to pay it back later.
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Originally Posted by AeroBatfink
And NATS isn't really paying students is it? How would qualifying as an ATCO be a transferrable skill useful to any other industry outside ATC. Are there even many examples of trainees passing Bournemouth then going straight to work for a rival company? It's vocational training, and there are plenty of examples of that around. Granted, they're probably not better paid though...
For many years NATS has been supplying the "non-state" sector with a steady stream of partially and fully qualified controllers, resulting in huge savings in training costs for these companies. Since the restructuring of the NATS training courses, the number of "drop outs" with Aerodrome ratings has dropped. With this supply drying up, these companies are now facing two options. The first, like NATS, taking unqualified people and training them from scratch, or, the second and most likely, offering competitive salaries and benefits that might just tempt someone straight out of the college to go and work for them. So there is a real possibility that at some point in the future the situation you describe may become a reality. Therefore be prepared for bonding, the "non-state" companies have no hesitation in doing this to protect their training costs.
