Handover already cleared to land

[Jumbo Driver]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Originally Posted by Pierre Argh

My favourite similar gotcha is "Surface wind 320... err calm".

Surely that should be reported as "Surface wind calm from the North West"...

[aluminium persuader]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

PA- your fave gets me often! However, in this case the guy's on finals, been cleared to land, had surface wind, had gear check. It's just one of those mil/civ differences. Any instrument approach at a mil field is handled downstairs until the a/c has completed its landing roll or the pilot has reported going visual. Thus when the pilot called Benson yes, I'm sure the controller was taken by surprise, but equally what else could he say but "pass yr message"?

[jEtGuiDeR]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Originally Posted by aluminium persuader

I'm sure the controller was taken by surprise, but equally what else could he say but "pass yr message"?

"G-ABCD Benson Tower, you have been cleared to land, Wind blah"
That should about cover it

[Pierre Argh]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Jumbo Driver is of course factually correct... but he must fly something with a glass cockpit these days as it seems he needs a simple explanation?

You look at the wind direction gauge, and start speaking "surface wind 320... (now looking at the speed dial, and thinking oh ****!!!) ... err calm"

AlPers: what "240andbelow" says sounds good enough for me!!!

[aluminium persuader]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

I know what youre both saying, but a mil ATCO just wouldn't be expecting anything. In muh the same way that a civ ATCO wouldn't expect, when vectoring a mil a/c, the pilot to pass no. on board, his minima for that approach & his intentions.
Either way, it's not a particularly big deal. I would commend Mr Morris for coming onto this thread to ask about something about which he was puzzled. Well done mate! And more credit to a CCF officer (& fairly new one, I think) for actually getting his hands dirty in live aviation!

[DET1]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

The Talkdown controller unfortunately would have just lost his ticket as you have to have passed a clearance before 2 miles. If he had said 'cleared to land 2 miles' fine but not the other way around. Staying off the centreline is what we aim for until approx 2 miles prior to DH, depeding on ac type. A nice converging heading from 8 miles is the best way. Finally the Tower controller should have replied with G---- you have been cleared to land, although unless you wished to go to tower I would have left you alone until you had landed and had the ac slowing down, then switched you to tower, after all no one else was using the runway.

[Pierre Argh]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

DET1 if you really believe

If he had said 'cleared to land 2 miles' fine but not the other way around

the Controller would lose his ticket, I suggest you report to the SMO and seek his advise on anal retention... I presume you are refering to the JSP552 regulation that says, the pilot must be in receipt of a clearance BY 2nms (100% PK answer, well done), and in hanging onto the word "by", implying that 2.1nms = good, keep your ticket; 2.0nms = bad, lose ticket!!!

You are either playing with semantics and trying to be smart arse, or totally overlooking practicality and not asking yourself the reason behind the regulation (which is to give timely notice to the pilot, and avoid them jeoparding other aircraft by continuing the approach but breaking off the approach at a very late stage... I truly doubt 0.1nm would be that significant in this situation?... PAR is a precision approach, OK and I assume like most RAF bases you use RPAR that gives a range readout at 0.1nm intervals? If you are seriously suggesting that if ADC issues a landing clearance to you at 2.1nms (still within regulations) but you are unable to readback and pass the clearance before the range indicator drops to 2nms you must break off the approach, I would sincerely hope not; so presumably are advocating the controller sacrifices accuracy in order to pass the phrase in a particular order simply to comply with the regs. This sounds like a typical CATCS exercise objective; I could understand ATCEB raising this as a minor error, but shocked to hear of a controller losing their ticket on this issue alone.

If you want a laugh, at your own expense, talk to some aircrew mates about it next time you're in the bar?

[Pierre Argh]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Originally Posted by Mike Jenvey

Nope, but if you don't they often ask!!
When checking in on UK "military" radio..... takes deep breath:
Military Approach, callsign, 4000 ft, descending to altitude 3000 ft, QNH 1023, radar heading 270 degrees, speed 180 kts, aircraft type, 5 POB, Information C, request PAR, minima 270 ft.......
[Gasps for air!]

Mike... you forgot position and squawk!

[DET1]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

'Anal retenttive & visit the SMO', must have touched a nerve. Over 25 years in, have been told am fairly good at my job, unit instructor, standards etc. Like to think I do my job fairly. I wont give you examples of the same problem actually causing loss of tickets. Yes you are right the job id there to be done. In our world that is 'safely, expeditiously using standard RT & phraseology. As someone said we dont have a job without aircrew, however, we do our job correctly we get a hard time for being pedantic, we relax the rules and some jobsworth moans at the Sup because we were not following procedures. I like to think we have a good relationship with our crews but when it comes down to it if we continue to allow the rules to be 'relaxed' then there will be a problem eventually. The 2 miles cleared to land is not the best example, but take the case of a recent decision by a pilot to land at a secret Wiltshire airbase when the RVR was less then 100 meters, was this relaxing the rules. There are faults all round, I was pointing out that this was not correct, if I caused offence then fine. A plea from one who sits in the tower, come up and visit us, watch a PAR, sit on radar, sit in Local for 30 mins and watch why we ask you to 'go around' rather than extend downwind and hopefully things will continue to improve. Rant over, except I will not apologise for trying to ensure that people do the job safely.

[tmmorris]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

And more credit to a CCF officer (& fairly new one, I think) for actually getting his hands dirty in live aviation!

Actually the aviation came first, which was how I got talked into it... (coming up for 3 years in CCF now). At least the CCF qualifies me for the Benson fg club, which is a fantastic bonus.

Tim

[Pierre Argh]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Tim... if you're a member of Benson Flying Club, pray why did you consider raising this question on PPRuNe... did you not talk to ATC in the first instance and get their explanation... from the way you word your original post it seems not?

[tmmorris]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Could indeed have done, but (a) wanted to save Benson ATC having to explain something I thought would probably be quite simple (and it was), and (b) wanted to put it into a civil/military context so comments from civil and military ATCOs on the differences were useful. Didn't want to start any rows, but there's something about the ATC forum that tends to go that way whatever the discussion...

Oh well.

Tim

[Pierre Argh]

Re: Handover already cleared to land

Tim... that's my point?

Most ATCOs won't bite your head off for asking a simple question, unless they are logged onto PPRuNe...

Looking for a military/civil perspective only provides fuel for the small minority who love to take pot-shots at the other side (i.e. military vs civil or vice-versa) and was probably irrelevant in this case, where the problem was specific to one site.