Handover already cleared to land
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Handover already cleared to land
Flew my first PAR on Wednesday - many thanks to the nice lady at Benson, though we did seem to be left of centreline for rather a long time...!
Anyway, got a bit confused by the RT on handover to tower...
Benson Talkdown: '2 miles to touchdown, cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Benson Talkdown: 'Decision height.'
Me: 'Visual, G-CD.'
Talkdown: 'Contact Tower, 1xx.xx'
Me: 'Tower, 1xx.xx, G-CD' ... 'Benson Tower, G-CD'
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Me (a bit flummoxed): 'Err... G-CD is short final for 19, cleared land.'
Tower: 'G-CD cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Presumably there had been a breakdown in comms in the tower, as Tower didn't seem to be expecting me or to know I'd been cleared to land. Was I correct in reading this back to him, or should I have waited or asked him to confirm cleared land?
Tim
Anyway, got a bit confused by the RT on handover to tower...
Benson Talkdown: '2 miles to touchdown, cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Benson Talkdown: 'Decision height.'
Me: 'Visual, G-CD.'
Talkdown: 'Contact Tower, 1xx.xx'
Me: 'Tower, 1xx.xx, G-CD' ... 'Benson Tower, G-CD'
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Me (a bit flummoxed): 'Err... G-CD is short final for 19, cleared land.'
Tower: 'G-CD cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Presumably there had been a breakdown in comms in the tower, as Tower didn't seem to be expecting me or to know I'd been cleared to land. Was I correct in reading this back to him, or should I have waited or asked him to confirm cleared land?
Tim
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
The tower ATCO would have given the PAR ATCO the landing clearance (by phone or other method), so he was just confirming that you were cleared to land.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Eeek.. A bit naughty.. no ATCO expecting an aircraft to call under those circumstances should say "pass your message". If anything he/she should have simply gone straight in with the landing clearance.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Tim
If that happens again say nothing. You've had the landing clearance, you've had the wind check. There's no requirement to call Tower until after you've landed - something along the lines of "Benson Tower, G-ABCD, on the runway from radar".
As others have said - Tower would already have issued the landing clearance to the radar controller, as they are the only ones legally entitled to give it - it being their runway, not radars.
If that happens again say nothing. You've had the landing clearance, you've had the wind check. There's no requirement to call Tower until after you've landed - something along the lines of "Benson Tower, G-ABCD, on the runway from radar".
As others have said - Tower would already have issued the landing clearance to the radar controller, as they are the only ones legally entitled to give it - it being their runway, not radars.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Hi TM ,
Maybe confusion with u saying visual? its a helo thing. When they used to call visual on a talkdown they wanted ATC to send them to tower cos 8/10 times they don't touchdown and hover taxi in. Done plenty of IR apps at Benson just say nowt till over touchdown then transfer to twr. As peeps have said PAR controller gets clearance fron TWR at x mles so he/she was definately expecting u, just most fixed wings at EGUB sdn't say nowt till on ground. Though I know someone who asked a Jag pilot who called vis at 2 miles to contact TWR , lol think he had more demanding things to do!!
Neil
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Maybe confusion with u saying visual? its a helo thing. When they used to call visual on a talkdown they wanted ATC to send them to tower cos 8/10 times they don't touchdown and hover taxi in. Done plenty of IR apps at Benson just say nowt till over touchdown then transfer to twr. As peeps have said PAR controller gets clearance fron TWR at x mles so he/she was definately expecting u, just most fixed wings at EGUB sdn't say nowt till on ground. Though I know someone who asked a Jag pilot who called vis at 2 miles to contact TWR , lol think he had more demanding things to do!!
Neil
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Thanks, Neil, that makes sense because on the ILS they don't usually give you the tower handover until after touchdown (for those who don't know Benson, civil ac have to taxi on Tower as Ground is UHF only).
Tim
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
tmmorris
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Gonzo
so he was just confirming that you were cleared to land.
OR THE ATCO WAS READING THE NEWSPAPER
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Gonzo
so he was just confirming that you were cleared to land.
OR THE ATCO WAS READING THE NEWSPAPER
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Poor phraseology by the twr controller.
After you have contacted twr his/her reply should have been 'G-CD, Benson Tower, you have been cleared to land'
If their defence however, Twr was probably flummoxed because they had not been told by PAR that you were chopping over.
After you have contacted twr his/her reply should have been 'G-CD, Benson Tower, you have been cleared to land'
If their defence however, Twr was probably flummoxed because they had not been told by PAR that you were chopping over.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Ok, I don't handle many SRAs from a TWR point of view, however, if one did come over to me inside two miles and just gave his callsign I would expect that he had something to tell me. In my experience they usually say "Callsign short final" or "Callsign visual from SRA". I will then say "Callsign confirming cleared to land........"
TWR would have known the a/c was cleared to land.
TWR would have known the a/c was cleared to land.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Originally Posted by tmmorris
Flew my first PAR on Wednesday - many thanks to the nice lady at Benson, though we did seem to be left of centreline for rather a long time...!
Anyway, got a bit confused by the RT on handover to tower...
Benson Talkdown: '2 miles to touchdown, cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Benson Talkdown: 'Decision height.'
Me: 'Visual, G-CD.'
Talkdown: 'Contact Tower, 1xx.xx'
Me: 'Tower, 1xx.xx, G-CD' ... 'Benson Tower, G-CD'
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Me (a bit flummoxed): 'Err... G-CD is short final for 19, cleared land.'
Tower: 'G-CD cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Presumably there had been a breakdown in comms in the tower, as Tower didn't seem to be expecting me or to know I'd been cleared to land. Was I correct in reading this back to him, or should I have waited or asked him to confirm cleared land?
Tim
Anyway, got a bit confused by the RT on handover to tower...
Benson Talkdown: '2 miles to touchdown, cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Benson Talkdown: 'Decision height.'
Me: 'Visual, G-CD.'
Talkdown: 'Contact Tower, 1xx.xx'
Me: 'Tower, 1xx.xx, G-CD' ... 'Benson Tower, G-CD'
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
Me (a bit flummoxed): 'Err... G-CD is short final for 19, cleared land.'
Tower: 'G-CD cleared land.'
Me: 'Cleared land, G-CD'
Presumably there had been a breakdown in comms in the tower, as Tower didn't seem to be expecting me or to know I'd been cleared to land. Was I correct in reading this back to him, or should I have waited or asked him to confirm cleared land?
Tim
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
So GONZO, would you say that the RT below is correct/good RT?
If any, shouldn't the TWR say "GO AHEAD" as per ICAO PANS standard RTF?
Tower: 'G-CD, pass your message'
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
re: go ahead.
Not in the UK. We have to say "pass your message". I think it may be something to do with the words "go ahead". They sound a bit like an instruction or even a clearance to move forward, so the CAA decided to make our phrase; "pass your message".
I know, I know, it sounds fine to me to, but once upon a time I'm sure someone got the wrong end of the stick and felt the long arm of the law.
Traaaaaaaaaaaa.
Not in the UK. We have to say "pass your message". I think it may be something to do with the words "go ahead". They sound a bit like an instruction or even a clearance to move forward, so the CAA decided to make our phrase; "pass your message".
I know, I know, it sounds fine to me to, but once upon a time I'm sure someone got the wrong end of the stick and felt the long arm of the law.
Traaaaaaaaaaaa.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
another one for ATC LHR...not a good idea to keep asking an aircraft do they have a problem when they kept their gear down due hot brakes. It disrupts the whole flow process. For info A330/320/1's brakes can get very hot on long taxi times and with no brake fans or fans u/s it is some times is pudent to keep the gear down for brake cooling.
havig said that you guys still run the best show.
Rgds
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havig said that you guys still run the best show.
Rgds
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Bearcat,
Thanks. I was about this morning and actually pointed out that the gear was still down to the ATCO. The misident was unfortunate, but we will always ask.
If you know you'll leave the gear down, please tell us.
Thanks. I was about this morning and actually pointed out that the gear was still down to the ATCO. The misident was unfortunate, but we will always ask.
If you know you'll leave the gear down, please tell us.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
With regard to the PAR (and you know I'm old and among the most harsh when it comes to my fellow ATCers...), I can see the problem. There's just not enough standard phraseology to cover all situations (can you imagine?), and this one might have been a bit tough to do concisely without sounding terse. When somebody calls me and just passes a callsign, I say (essentially), "how may I be of assistance?" That's what happened here. When the aircraft checked in with only the callsign my first thought would have been, "he/she has an additional request. Let's hear it."
Of course, it MAY have been that the controller was reading the newspaper, etc., but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one. In my opinion, nothing mean-spirited was intended.
Of course, it MAY have been that the controller was reading the newspaper, etc., but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one. In my opinion, nothing mean-spirited was intended.
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
TM - it's military speak. As has been said, you've had your clearance, wind etc. Twr are not expecting you to say anything until you've landed and are ready to speak. If you do call them, they are expecting you to want something, hence "pass your message".
The idea is that at this reasonably critical point of flight the pilot can get on with flying the aircraft without interruption. Bear in mind that it's taking into consideration that the a/c could be shot to pieces, engines missing, pilot leaking red stuff all over the place etc. It's also why we still have PAR & don't just rely on ILS.
I'd suggest you ring the folks at Benson & arrange a visit. Make it a long one so you get to watch a PAR from the other end. Oh, and DON'T FORGET THE CHOCCIE BISCUITS!!!
Edited to add-
When you're on the centreline at 8 miles, the only place you can go is off it. Thus we are taught to keep a small closing heading to about a 2-mile final (depending on the type of a/c), nibbling away at it until you converge. Works a treat!
The idea is that at this reasonably critical point of flight the pilot can get on with flying the aircraft without interruption. Bear in mind that it's taking into consideration that the a/c could be shot to pieces, engines missing, pilot leaking red stuff all over the place etc. It's also why we still have PAR & don't just rely on ILS.
I'd suggest you ring the folks at Benson & arrange a visit. Make it a long one so you get to watch a PAR from the other end. Oh, and DON'T FORGET THE CHOCCIE BISCUITS!!!
Edited to add-
When you're on the centreline at 8 miles, the only place you can go is off it. Thus we are taught to keep a small closing heading to about a 2-mile final (depending on the type of a/c), nibbling away at it until you converge. Works a treat!
Last edited by aluminium persuader; 9th Jan 2006 at 11:08. Reason: Addition!
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
I'd suggest you ring the folks at Benson & arrange a visit. Make it a long one so you get to watch a PAR from the other end. Oh, and DON'T FORGET THE CHOCCIE BISCUITS!!!
Edited to add-
When you're on the centreline at 8 miles, the only place you can go is off it. Thus we are taught to keep a small closing heading to about a 2-mile final (depending on the type of a/c), nibbling away at it until you converge. Works a treat!
When you're on the centreline at 8 miles, the only place you can go is off it. Thus we are taught to keep a small closing heading to about a 2-mile final (depending on the type of a/c), nibbling away at it until you converge. Works a treat!
Tim
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Re: Handover already cleared to land
Agree wholeheartedly with most of the above... going back to original question: maybe a simple case of unexpected (but not abnormal or incorrect) call catching controller in one of those "mind in neutral" moments (we're all human)... Controller replies with a standard, knee-jerk phrase... realises they've been a bit of a prat but can't retract it... and the ensuing interesting, but not unsafe, exchange followed? My favourite similar gotcha is "Surface wind 320... err calm".