8 years for ATC murder
Jail the Detectives
From what I remember the ATCo ('Peter X' at the time)was living under a witness protection type relocation.
Kalojew hired detectives, and tracked him down with great difficulty.
Kalojew hired detectives, and tracked him down with great difficulty.
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No, mercenary pilot. Experienced or not this 'accident' should have been no more than an air miss. It doesn't take much experience or nous to understand that TCAS is the last line of defence and you always follow it. The acts of this murderer and the Russian crew are symptomatic of the incompetence and violence of this third world state.
The Original Party Animal
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that TCAS is the last line of defence and you always follow it
and here: http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=20010131-2
Now, someone tell me, why ICAO is apparently getting away with it...
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Studi,
You are correct - I did not attend the tribunal either and my comments are also based on rumours (a proon speciality) and by what I have seen in the media.
The same is probably true of most people here and by necessity (or definition of PPRUNE) most topics discussed here are simply 'trial by media' a situation we all jump up and down about when it refers to an aviation incident where we know a few more of the facts than have been reported.
I would say that 'the law is an ass' is a known saying for a reason (not quite as harsh as that in this case). There are numerous examples such as the judge who determined that a young women who was raped had been 'asking for it' by wearing a short skirt! Examples such as that don't fill me with confidence that all neutral 'justice dispensers' are any more infallible than anyone else.
Those 'facts' (I accept they are unsubstantiated) I mentioned may have been taken into account, may have been disproved, may have been entirely speculative or fictional - I don't know.
All I can do is add my tuppenceworth and read everone elses (some better informed than others) and give my opinion. That way we can all comment on cases we don't have first hand knowledge of and hopefully learn from someone who does -I find that also works for things like dinner party conversation; if I only entered conversations about subjects I knew indise out and could back up with documented evidence I would be a lot quieter (and I wouldn't learn as much by being corrected/informed by those more learned on a sublject than myself)
But after all that - I personally still find it hard to believe that he tracked Peter X down internationally and approached him with a wepon which he then used to murder him in cold blood (and in front of his family) without any degree of premeditation.
You are correct - I did not attend the tribunal either and my comments are also based on rumours (a proon speciality) and by what I have seen in the media.
The same is probably true of most people here and by necessity (or definition of PPRUNE) most topics discussed here are simply 'trial by media' a situation we all jump up and down about when it refers to an aviation incident where we know a few more of the facts than have been reported.
I would say that 'the law is an ass' is a known saying for a reason (not quite as harsh as that in this case). There are numerous examples such as the judge who determined that a young women who was raped had been 'asking for it' by wearing a short skirt! Examples such as that don't fill me with confidence that all neutral 'justice dispensers' are any more infallible than anyone else.
Those 'facts' (I accept they are unsubstantiated) I mentioned may have been taken into account, may have been disproved, may have been entirely speculative or fictional - I don't know.
All I can do is add my tuppenceworth and read everone elses (some better informed than others) and give my opinion. That way we can all comment on cases we don't have first hand knowledge of and hopefully learn from someone who does -I find that also works for things like dinner party conversation; if I only entered conversations about subjects I knew indise out and could back up with documented evidence I would be a lot quieter (and I wouldn't learn as much by being corrected/informed by those more learned on a sublject than myself)
But after all that - I personally still find it hard to believe that he tracked Peter X down internationally and approached him with a wepon which he then used to murder him in cold blood (and in front of his family) without any degree of premeditation.
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Sorry, not buying that diminshed responsibility, anguished grieving, I-didn't-know-what-I-was-doing stuff!
Community living, no matter what country you live in, relies on people making good choices that don't harm others regardless of their emotional state. Otherwise, let's get rid of all our laws and act on our animal impulses.
When someone like this Russian takes it upon himself to inflict the kind of damage he did to the controllers family, we get anarchy. If he gets out in a few years and has another traumatic episode that triggers another killing, do you want to be on the receiving end?
And what's this " group of people that have have far more insight into the law than we as normal people have?". If you mean that they can recite the law better, I concede, but if you mean that legislators around the world draft good laws and deliver just verdicts faultlessly, you've got to be kidding!
I know the awful feeling that comes from a terrible loss but this ATCO and his family did not deserve this. I hope the appeal court gives the Russian life and throws away the key.
Community living, no matter what country you live in, relies on people making good choices that don't harm others regardless of their emotional state. Otherwise, let's get rid of all our laws and act on our animal impulses.
When someone like this Russian takes it upon himself to inflict the kind of damage he did to the controllers family, we get anarchy. If he gets out in a few years and has another traumatic episode that triggers another killing, do you want to be on the receiving end?
And what's this " group of people that have have far more insight into the law than we as normal people have?". If you mean that they can recite the law better, I concede, but if you mean that legislators around the world draft good laws and deliver just verdicts faultlessly, you've got to be kidding!
I know the awful feeling that comes from a terrible loss but this ATCO and his family did not deserve this. I hope the appeal court gives the Russian life and throws away the key.
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The question asked in an earlier posting was what consequences have the Skyguide management faced as a result of this disaster?
To my knowledge, there have been no terminations, no resignations, and even the Swiss Transport Minister has refused to accept responsibility for the absolute sh1thouse Skyguide operated on that fatal night.
To my knowledge, there have been no terminations, no resignations, and even the Swiss Transport Minister has refused to accept responsibility for the absolute sh1thouse Skyguide operated on that fatal night.
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Alpha Leader
Apart from the fact that this is way of the topic, I'd rather fly through Swiss air space than through Indian. No offence intended. Other then that I'd like to double on Spuds question!
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N380UA, Spuds McKenzie:
Skyguide were, on that particular evening, in violation of their very own operating rules, including - but not limited to - the fact that only one controller was in attendance.
Any more questions?
Skyguide were, on that particular evening, in violation of their very own operating rules, including - but not limited to - the fact that only one controller was in attendance.
Any more questions?
The Original Party Animal
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Elaborate on those rules, Skyguide was in violation of, Alpha Leader.
And tell us what would have happened if both crews had been following TCAS.
And tell us what would have happened if both crews had been following TCAS.
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I think, this was coldblooded murder. Nothing else. I dont care about why and how.
If murder isnīt punished any more...
There is a lenghty article in the german news-mag "Der Spiegel", telling the story how this guy became obsessed with the question: who is guilty and who apologizes to me. Apparently in his culture one has to crawl 500 meters under constant excuses if he has done harm...
Sure there are mistakes done by swisscontrol, which didnīt want to apologize,sure this guy has rights too (and one can understand that he went mad), but this poor danish swiss atco had the right to live.
If murder isnīt punished any more...
There is a lenghty article in the german news-mag "Der Spiegel", telling the story how this guy became obsessed with the question: who is guilty and who apologizes to me. Apparently in his culture one has to crawl 500 meters under constant excuses if he has done harm...
Sure there are mistakes done by swisscontrol, which didnīt want to apologize,sure this guy has rights too (and one can understand that he went mad), but this poor danish swiss atco had the right to live.
niknak
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In the UK we have had several recent cases of corperate manslaughter been bought, particularly after railway accidents.
In most of them, no one individual could be indentified as being the person whose incompetence premeditated the accident or incident, although it's obvious, that, as in this case, corporate greed was the overiding factor.
Frankly, I am amazed that none of the relatives affected by any of these other incidents, have not taken the direct action which the Russian chap did.
I don't condone his actions, clearly he was severely traumatised and probably went a lot further than he intended to, but in the same situation, who are any of us to judge him?
In most of them, no one individual could be indentified as being the person whose incompetence premeditated the accident or incident, although it's obvious, that, as in this case, corporate greed was the overiding factor.
Frankly, I am amazed that none of the relatives affected by any of these other incidents, have not taken the direct action which the Russian chap did.
I don't condone his actions, clearly he was severely traumatised and probably went a lot further than he intended to, but in the same situation, who are any of us to judge him?
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Credentials aside, Mr McKenzie, Alpha Leader makes an important point, which I as a fully paid-up member of the ATC fraternity totally agree with.
I don't know where you work, but I'll take a wild guess and say ScOACC. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Now, how would you feel if management told you that as well as controlling a bandboxed area sector at night (say, Humber/Montrose), you also have to provide approach services to aircraft landing at, say, Aberdeen airport? You are operating from two different consoles, with two different frequencies. The only aid to your job is one of those fancy office chairs with the reclining backrest and friction-free wheels. To make matters worse, those pesky engineers are fiddling with the phones, so none of them work properly.
No matter how quiet these sectors are, I don't think any of us working at a UK ATC unit would tolerate those conditions. And nor should we.
In my opinion, Skyguide have a majority shareholding in the blame for not just one, but two crimes. Firstly, the system at Zurich that night was so seriously degraded that the duty ATCO was unable to provide safe air traffic services to the aircraft under his control. The link in Mercenary Pilot's post illustrates this quite well. Secondly, someone in that company has released the ATCO's name to the media, which has ultimately resulted in his murder. Now I don't care whether the name was officially released, or unofficially "leaked" - the fact is that the man's name should never have been in the public domain.
This is an open forum and I don't think Alpha Leader should be disqualified from making valid comments just because his profile doesn't say "ATCO". Those who criticise should either bring something meaningful to the discussion, or wind their necks in.
LTP
I don't know where you work, but I'll take a wild guess and say ScOACC. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Now, how would you feel if management told you that as well as controlling a bandboxed area sector at night (say, Humber/Montrose), you also have to provide approach services to aircraft landing at, say, Aberdeen airport? You are operating from two different consoles, with two different frequencies. The only aid to your job is one of those fancy office chairs with the reclining backrest and friction-free wheels. To make matters worse, those pesky engineers are fiddling with the phones, so none of them work properly.
No matter how quiet these sectors are, I don't think any of us working at a UK ATC unit would tolerate those conditions. And nor should we.
In my opinion, Skyguide have a majority shareholding in the blame for not just one, but two crimes. Firstly, the system at Zurich that night was so seriously degraded that the duty ATCO was unable to provide safe air traffic services to the aircraft under his control. The link in Mercenary Pilot's post illustrates this quite well. Secondly, someone in that company has released the ATCO's name to the media, which has ultimately resulted in his murder. Now I don't care whether the name was officially released, or unofficially "leaked" - the fact is that the man's name should never have been in the public domain.
This is an open forum and I don't think Alpha Leader should be disqualified from making valid comments just because his profile doesn't say "ATCO". Those who criticise should either bring something meaningful to the discussion, or wind their necks in.
LTP
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niknak
Every time the court system hands down a verdict, a judgement is made. Judgements are made by the zillion every day and will continue to be made at that rate till the cows come home.
Almost every law we have is designed to protect the community at large and is meant to ensure that emotional outbursts are at least tempered by an understanding that your actions will have consequences. Of course people often don't think about those consequences when they're in the heat of emotional turmoil but I will always be asking that offenders of any description who hurt/kill anyone for whatever reason be held to account. To not do so is to invite random violence by those who, for whatever reason, cannot hold their feelings in check. I don't want my children to live in a world where unrestrained emotions are in any way condoned.
I will judge the Russian and say that he was wrong...no qualifiers. If I should ever do the same thing, you should hold me to that same standard.
Every time the court system hands down a verdict, a judgement is made. Judgements are made by the zillion every day and will continue to be made at that rate till the cows come home.
Almost every law we have is designed to protect the community at large and is meant to ensure that emotional outbursts are at least tempered by an understanding that your actions will have consequences. Of course people often don't think about those consequences when they're in the heat of emotional turmoil but I will always be asking that offenders of any description who hurt/kill anyone for whatever reason be held to account. To not do so is to invite random violence by those who, for whatever reason, cannot hold their feelings in check. I don't want my children to live in a world where unrestrained emotions are in any way condoned.
I will judge the Russian and say that he was wrong...no qualifiers. If I should ever do the same thing, you should hold me to that same standard.
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Tragic story, beginning with dozens dead, one killing and a prison sentance... but it seems to have brought out the amateur lawyers from across the world, who sadly seem to have nothing better to do than discuss Swiss Law (which presumably few actually understand?) Pointless!
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@Pierre, like has been said on this and many other boards before, it is pointless to rant about people discussing matters they are not professionals in
of course it is your well deserved right to rant about it if you have nothing better to do
of course it is your well deserved right to rant about it if you have nothing better to do