Irritable ATC
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Derbyshire
Irritable ATC
Now before i start, I must stress that this is only based on my limited experiance from ATC, and at Liverpool John Lenon, so naturally dont assume that everywhere is the same.
After flying for over a year, and just being on the verge of completing my PPL, I have finally got the hang of RT communications (VHF radio), and implementing this with flying and navigation. So here is my nag....WHY oh WHY do pilots feel the need to greet the controllers and sign off on the same note. Let me give you a scenario:
Im sent off on my first general handling flight in the local area, just to the South west of EGGP control zone (sunday afternoon sometime in August)
Pilot 1:" Liverpool App Gooooood afternoon, this is Golf Lima mike sierra charlie , currently 15Nm to the South of Tarvin for a Non...........etc"
Mean while i'm patiently waiting for a gap to pass my details across, but whilst Pilot one is just ending his 1st transmission..
Pilot 2: "Liverpool App hello and a good afternoon........
Some 5 minutes have passed before i can even get chance to get a simple message across to recieve clearence to re join the zone.
Has anyone else experiance flappy pilots like this? I know im only a newbie to aviation, correct me if im wrong, but aviation is suppose to be professional, why say more than is necessary!
Antony Bradford
After flying for over a year, and just being on the verge of completing my PPL, I have finally got the hang of RT communications (VHF radio), and implementing this with flying and navigation. So here is my nag....WHY oh WHY do pilots feel the need to greet the controllers and sign off on the same note. Let me give you a scenario:
Im sent off on my first general handling flight in the local area, just to the South west of EGGP control zone (sunday afternoon sometime in August)
Pilot 1:" Liverpool App Gooooood afternoon, this is Golf Lima mike sierra charlie , currently 15Nm to the South of Tarvin for a Non...........etc"
Mean while i'm patiently waiting for a gap to pass my details across, but whilst Pilot one is just ending his 1st transmission..
Pilot 2: "Liverpool App hello and a good afternoon........
Some 5 minutes have passed before i can even get chance to get a simple message across to recieve clearence to re join the zone.
Has anyone else experiance flappy pilots like this? I know im only a newbie to aviation, correct me if im wrong, but aviation is suppose to be professional, why say more than is necessary!
Antony Bradford
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,266
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From: Berkshire, UK
Hi Anthony. Having spent 95% of my working life as a professional air traffic controller I would doubt very much the accuracy of your statements! OK, a percentage of pilots and controllers exchange "niceties" but to suggest that is the reason for you being unable to make your calls is nonsense. I doubt that Liverpool is particularly busy so the R/T is probably more relaxed than elsewhere. However, having worked Heathrow ATC for 31 years and always wished crews "gooday sir" I don't think you have any grounds to complain.
And where does the "Irritable ATC" come in? You never explained that..
Good luck with the flying.... wish I'd gotten a PPL but it's far, far too late now.
And where does the "Irritable ATC" come in? You never explained that..
Good luck with the flying.... wish I'd gotten a PPL but it's far, far too late now.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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From: Derbyshire
I thought that I would get a reply from someone with far more experiance than me lol.
The irritable ATC is mearly a play on words i suppose, just grabs people attention, though I hope this hasn't offended any ATC controllers (which might I add have a huge responcibility to deal with - many thanks to you guys! )
I'm sure my experiance was a one off occasion. What I was really trying to get accross is modern day ATC. Within my unv course, often conversation drifts onto this topic, and how some pilots see the need to be very casual and relaxed abouthow they come accross on the radio, sometimes it seems like an epic!
I guess this is just a bad thing that us young generation have developed - Impatience! lol
What do you guys think? Would you prefere to hear a more friendly ATC approach, or a brief cold - but very precise transmition? I would love to know what people with more experiance than me have to say,
Antony
The irritable ATC is mearly a play on words i suppose, just grabs people attention, though I hope this hasn't offended any ATC controllers (which might I add have a huge responcibility to deal with - many thanks to you guys! )
I'm sure my experiance was a one off occasion. What I was really trying to get accross is modern day ATC. Within my unv course, often conversation drifts onto this topic, and how some pilots see the need to be very casual and relaxed abouthow they come accross on the radio, sometimes it seems like an epic!
I guess this is just a bad thing that us young generation have developed - Impatience! lol
What do you guys think? Would you prefere to hear a more friendly ATC approach, or a brief cold - but very precise transmition? I would love to know what people with more experiance than me have to say,
Antony
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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HD the oldest person I taught to fly from fresh was 75 and the oldest to retrain was 82.
The 82 year old hadn't flown since the second world war. An ex single pilot SOE bomber pilot who used to fly into Italy with as he put it a bit of wet sea weed for nav aids to resupply the locals in the hills. And he is quite happy on his NPPL
And the 75 year old always wanted to be a pilot but had to wait until his wife died to get to do it. Again has a NPPL took about 55 hours to get it.
Go for it and let us know how you get on.
What antony i think is getting wound up by is quite common with new PPl's. Its the cross over period between PPL instruction and doing it for real. I am in no doudt that he will have the perfect RT planed out in his head and just as he is about to hit the tit after a suitable airmanship pause. Some one else jumps in. Unfortuntly we have all been there. It's just experence. And more than likely it was irritable ATC the poor controller shoutin at the screen "i don't care shut up so i can get a sqwauk on you." The more experenced pilots know when the call from the previous aircraft has finished and hit the button as it finishes or just before.
Don't go down the route of air rage though it never helps the situation and only spoils your pleasure of flying and makes you more likely to make mistakes in the ATZ.
CAP413 intial call has changed somewhat in the last 2 years and the old CAPHAD which is one of the methods taught has become rather long winded for the current state of play for intial contact.
Its not the PPL's fault as the RT practical test is all set up with the ideal world that the CAA wants to happen. But in real life never happens.
Best thing for you to do is go visit the tower and have a chat with the controllers and find out what they would suggest you do. Also what they want as an intial call. Once they can put a face to a voice its uncanny how things will become a whole lot simplier. Then you can annoy other pilots by the controller saying "G-xxx sqwauk 7000 qsy to onroute speak to you later Tony"
Mj
The 82 year old hadn't flown since the second world war. An ex single pilot SOE bomber pilot who used to fly into Italy with as he put it a bit of wet sea weed for nav aids to resupply the locals in the hills. And he is quite happy on his NPPL
And the 75 year old always wanted to be a pilot but had to wait until his wife died to get to do it. Again has a NPPL took about 55 hours to get it.
Go for it and let us know how you get on.
What antony i think is getting wound up by is quite common with new PPl's. Its the cross over period between PPL instruction and doing it for real. I am in no doudt that he will have the perfect RT planed out in his head and just as he is about to hit the tit after a suitable airmanship pause. Some one else jumps in. Unfortuntly we have all been there. It's just experence. And more than likely it was irritable ATC the poor controller shoutin at the screen "i don't care shut up so i can get a sqwauk on you." The more experenced pilots know when the call from the previous aircraft has finished and hit the button as it finishes or just before.
Don't go down the route of air rage though it never helps the situation and only spoils your pleasure of flying and makes you more likely to make mistakes in the ATZ.
CAP413 intial call has changed somewhat in the last 2 years and the old CAPHAD which is one of the methods taught has become rather long winded for the current state of play for intial contact.
Its not the PPL's fault as the RT practical test is all set up with the ideal world that the CAA wants to happen. But in real life never happens.
Best thing for you to do is go visit the tower and have a chat with the controllers and find out what they would suggest you do. Also what they want as an intial call. Once they can put a face to a voice its uncanny how things will become a whole lot simplier. Then you can annoy other pilots by the controller saying "G-xxx sqwauk 7000 qsy to onroute speak to you later Tony"
Mj
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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From: Derbyshire
This is true, I mean it is difficult because we are bombared with too much official documentation that depicts how certain actions should be carried out, RT is no different.
I agree that what is stated and what actually happens is different, though I have to say, what does amuse me, is:
"G-MS, contact approach on 119 day cee mal 5" lol
I've only ever heard one controller say that. Even my RT examer informed us that this was in place for old radio purposes whereby transmition was alot poorer quality.
Antony
I agree that what is stated and what actually happens is different, though I have to say, what does amuse me, is:
"G-MS, contact approach on 119 day cee mal 5" lol
I've only ever heard one controller say that. Even my RT examer informed us that this was in place for old radio purposes whereby transmition was alot poorer quality.
Antony
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 183
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From: IOM
Hi there,
I've been flying PA28's for over 3 years now.
In quiet periods, pilot's sometimes become a lot more relaxed on the R/T, as there is less pressure to rush the transmissions.
Also, your instructor would probably recommend you relax your ATC aswell, as it helps to get used to it. If you rush it and be snappy with your transmissions you end up making more mistakes. Take your time with R/T and learn to 'use the gap' efficiently. Ie. after a while you get to perfectly time your transmissions and know exactly what to miss out and what to include.
And of course... patience is a virtue!
Would recommend getting to know your controllers, helps to feel more confident when talking to them over R/T. (also means you find yourself calling for rejoin and a chat about the footy match at the weekend
)!!
Hehe. Enjoy your flying mate, it's a brilliant experience.
RR
I've been flying PA28's for over 3 years now.
In quiet periods, pilot's sometimes become a lot more relaxed on the R/T, as there is less pressure to rush the transmissions.
Also, your instructor would probably recommend you relax your ATC aswell, as it helps to get used to it. If you rush it and be snappy with your transmissions you end up making more mistakes. Take your time with R/T and learn to 'use the gap' efficiently. Ie. after a while you get to perfectly time your transmissions and know exactly what to miss out and what to include.
And of course... patience is a virtue!
Would recommend getting to know your controllers, helps to feel more confident when talking to them over R/T. (also means you find yourself calling for rejoin and a chat about the footy match at the weekend
)!!Hehe. Enjoy your flying mate, it's a brilliant experience.
RR
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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From: Derbyshire
By that I take it you fly from liverpool and have come across the controller that says that?
RT is a wounderful thing though - get it right and you feel more confortable, get it wrong and sometimes its hard to forget, and consequently it affects your flight in a negative manor.
RT is a wounderful thing though - get it right and you feel more confortable, get it wrong and sometimes its hard to forget, and consequently it affects your flight in a negative manor.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Don't worry about cocking up your RT.
Fly Nav Speak
Commercial pilots drop clangers everyday. Stepping on read backs and the like. And for most when you take them away from there comfy IFR script they will be just as tongue warped as a 50 hour PPL flying VFR.
Enjoy your flying and after you have a PPL why not offer to take a controller up from the tower. You will have to let them do the RT just for amusment factor of getting the conversation round the wrong way. And them getting fustrated with there collegues.
MJ
Fly Nav Speak
Commercial pilots drop clangers everyday. Stepping on read backs and the like. And for most when you take them away from there comfy IFR script they will be just as tongue warped as a 50 hour PPL flying VFR.
Enjoy your flying and after you have a PPL why not offer to take a controller up from the tower. You will have to let them do the RT just for amusment factor of getting the conversation round the wrong way. And them getting fustrated with there collegues.
MJ
Reluctant Scouser !!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 31
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From: me to you
Anthony, I'm not sure I get your point? ATC uses standard phraseology and although it may take up alot of R/T time, there are certain items that we have to pass to pilots, in a certain way and that we then have to ensure that you read back to us. This can be a pain in the a*se if it's busy (especially when we have to repeat ourselves!!) but it has to be done and despite how busy it gets, we try to keep it relaxed and friendly, especially for students like yourself... well, most of the time anyway! 
Despite what other people may perceive, EGGP is very busy at various times of the day..and getting busier. I expect the day that you are talking about (a Sunday afternoon in August) would most definately have been VFR-tastic! With that, the IFRs, and the numerous transit requests... I don't doubt that the Approach frequency would've been a bit crowded. You just have to remain outside controlled airspace and be a bit quicker on the button!
As for the "contact approach, 119 day-see-mal 85" as far as i know, we all say that... it's standard phraseology. I think the accent of the lady in question just makes it sound distinctive!
Maybe a visit to the tower is in order. Speak to your instructor, we always welcome visits from the students over on the GA... and by the sounds of it, I think you could benefit from the experience.
One tip tho.... don't forget the choccie biscuits!!!
Despite what other people may perceive, EGGP is very busy at various times of the day..and getting busier. I expect the day that you are talking about (a Sunday afternoon in August) would most definately have been VFR-tastic! With that, the IFRs, and the numerous transit requests... I don't doubt that the Approach frequency would've been a bit crowded. You just have to remain outside controlled airspace and be a bit quicker on the button!
As for the "contact approach, 119 day-see-mal 85" as far as i know, we all say that... it's standard phraseology. I think the accent of the lady in question just makes it sound distinctive!
Maybe a visit to the tower is in order. Speak to your instructor, we always welcome visits from the students over on the GA... and by the sounds of it, I think you could benefit from the experience.
One tip tho.... don't forget the choccie biscuits!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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From: Derbyshire
My original point was just that simetimes, some pilots take too much time over RT, though I think my point has been nulled out by very good points.
I have to say I agree with what you guys are saying, practice doesnt necessarily follow how the CAA preach, after all, the CAA speculates obscure rules and regulations / practices and proceedures at the best of times!
Antony:
I have to say I agree with what you guys are saying, practice doesnt necessarily follow how the CAA preach, after all, the CAA speculates obscure rules and regulations / practices and proceedures at the best of times!
Antony:
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 57
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From: UK
Anthony
I, personally as a controller, talk normally. I use the correct Rt such as Tree for three etc when:
a. I am talking to a foreign pilot, to whom English is definitely a second language (& who if you say anything outside of ICAO standard will just end up in many extra transmissions) or
b. Anyone flying who obviously has problems thinking, flying and speaking at the same time – there are many out there.
Much of the extra words you here out there are thinking time. Many (if not all) controllers at a LARS unit (Mil or Civil) will know the problem of those that hit the transmit before the brain catches up. (obviously that never happens to us ATCOs!).
Many a time have I had a life history, colour of underwear or general synopsis of global political events without being told position, heading, height or destination.
I, personally as a controller, talk normally. I use the correct Rt such as Tree for three etc when:
a. I am talking to a foreign pilot, to whom English is definitely a second language (& who if you say anything outside of ICAO standard will just end up in many extra transmissions) or
b. Anyone flying who obviously has problems thinking, flying and speaking at the same time – there are many out there.
Much of the extra words you here out there are thinking time. Many (if not all) controllers at a LARS unit (Mil or Civil) will know the problem of those that hit the transmit before the brain catches up. (obviously that never happens to us ATCOs!).
Many a time have I had a life history, colour of underwear or general synopsis of global political events without being told position, heading, height or destination.
Guest
Posts: n/a
On the business of standard RT being a bit OTT, it's true that the books tell you the 'right way' but things are a bit more relaxed in the real world. But when things are going wrong standard RT is unambiguous and the most likely to be clearly understood. The trouble is that if you've never learned the 'right way'you can't fall back on it.
Same applies to lots of other things and not just aviation things.
Same applies to lots of other things and not just aviation things.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
CAA speculates obscure rules and regulations / practices and proceedures
They really don't make them up for the fun of it. Most are brought in post accidents to stop it occuring again in the future. Time passes we forget why the regulation was changed. Then start bitching that its a stupid reg.
MJ
Atcham Tower A very perceptive post
